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Question 3 - on applicable descriptor

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5 years 10 months ago #212499 by Belle
Ok, my 'questons' have been detailed and massive.
My anxiety meaning I worry about every detail/

This one is more about something that I am worried about, that does not actually affect how I fill in that question - as I will just write about my difficulties, but which descriptor applies is confusing me & worrying me.

For years I have had lower rate mobility on DLA, for mental health reasons.

I heard about the problems since last year with the government creating new rules that discriminated against people being awarded the mobility part of PIP on mental health grounds.
Which of course was very worrying for me.
Was very relieved when I heard that in January the courts had ruled against the government.
And then I read all of your information about the situation in your guide when I downloaded it.

However, I still find the descriptors for 'Going Out' quite confusing as to what would apply to me, and also wondering if the decision makers are still following the DWP guidance form last year, or taking any notice of what the courts have ruled on this.

It is definetly not only descriptor 'b' that applies to me for question 13.
I would say that descriptor E or F also applies.

What confuses me is the way the descriptor E has been writen, and the way that the DWP/assessors were treating it - it was as though E has to applly to you 100% of the time. - You are never ever , ever able to leave your home. Not for years, even once.
It's bizarre!
Due to sever anxiety, distress and very high levels of dissociation , I am unable to go out most of the time. Sometimes once a week, sometimes if a good week 2 to 3 times, but also very often I am unable to leave my flat for 2 to 3 weeks straight. I even miss my essential therapy appointments. So it works out that on average I am unable to leave my flat 80-90% of the time.

Now, early in your guidance document , on page 21 it says that "if one descriptor applies to you for over 50% of the time that is the one you get point for".

So it seems that for every other descriptor, you need to have that problem for 50% plus of the time and it means it applies/you get the points?
But for a messed up reason ( prejudice against mental health) that with question 13, descriptor E will only apply to you if it is the case 100% of the time that you cannot leave your home??

I have not clarified, that it is not only the anxiety of going out of the door. It is not only promoting to do that I need, I also can have panic attacks, flashbacks, dissociative episodes, extremely high levels of anxiety and distress, and suicidal urges around dangerous places ( eg. traffic, train stations) when I am out.
It does not matter if the route is familiar or not, it is being out around people, and using public transport ( I don't drive, and I live in London), and that all these symptoms are unpredictable and can happen while I am out, or be triggered while I am out, as much as when I am home.

So there fore descriptor F applies in my opinion - that I need assistance form another perosn when following a familiar route - which I do. But most of the time I don't get it. So most of the time I don't go out.

According to the courts, I should be able to have descriptor F apply to me on mental health/ psychological distress gounds, since the ruling in January?
But I worry about the part that says, on page 18 that the governement ruled out psycholoical distress for being applicable for descriptor F.
Has the recently ruling by the courts actually changed this yet?
Has it impacted the system/ decisions yet?

I.e, is it now possible for be to be awarded F if they decide they agree with my evidence?
or has the impact form the court decision not trickled down yet - or my worst fear, they are going to ignore the courts?

The problem is, with the terrible illegal discrimination that the governmenet brought in last year, they would say that neither E or F apply to me, so only give me B.
Which is only 4 points. So I would totally lose my mobility component that I had in my DLA.
Which I really need! A s I often have to rely on taxis.

So this why I worry, that they may still be working like that and say only B applies to me, although that is not true, ans I will lose part of my essential uincome.

Is it true, that you cannot get E applying to you, even it it is true for 80-90% of the time?
( Has that changed? - Confused on that.)
Why does that 50% plus of the time rule, described on page 21 not apply to that descriptor???? That really confuses me! And is massively uninformed and discriminatory to mental conditions.

Sorry again that this post is SOOO long. I alwasy seem to need to go into a lot of detail to describe my concern.
Thank you.
I know this is late, so no reply until Monday.

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5 years 10 months ago #212508 by Gordon
Replied by Gordon on topic Question 3 - on applicable descriptor
Belle

Has the law changed to take account of Mental health problems for the Going Out activity? Yes

Have the DWP implemented the changes? No

Will they fix the problem at some time in the future? Yes but they are reviewing 1.5m claims so it is going to take some time.

Can you appeal a negative Decision? Yes

So basically the DWP are unlikely to find for you even if you explain your problems, however, you should be able to overturn the Decision on appeal.

You need to decide which of the Going Out Descriptors you are going to try and meet, as the guide says; Descriptors (e) and (f) are considered to be mutually exclusive of each other. If you can't leave your home then you can't be assessed for being unable to follow a route and if you have problems with following a route then you must by definition be able to leave your house.

In both cases the reliability criteria still apply so although the standard set for (e) is very high it is reasonable to argue, because of the reliability criteria that "cannot" does not mean "never", also claimants only have to be effected on the majority of days. As an aside, be careful of using percentages for this, for example; four days (the majority of days in a week) is actually about 58% of the time.

For (f) it is important to understand that it is your ability to follow or navigate the route that is being assessed, so this must be the primary problem on your form followed by the reason, again as an example; I am unable to follow a route because when faced with crossing a road I have suicidal urges.

Obviously you will need to explain all of your issues with following a route.

Gordon

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5 years 10 months ago #212698 by Belle
Replied by Belle on topic Question 3 - on applicable descriptor
Thank you Gordon for your reply. I did not expect a reply at the weekend! Thank you so much.
However I have been unwell, my mental health has been terrible, and unable to reply until now.
Fortunately I was able to get a further extension from the DWP of another week, so I am aiming to post the form on Thursday or Friday at the latest.

Your reply clarifies some things, but since the system is illogical - i.e in real life 'e' and 'f' are not mutually exclusive - it is still confusing to me how to answer the question.
As you say, for 'e' to apply it only has to be on the majority of days, and also 'reliably' - so since my condition is unpredictable , I cannot say on any given day if I can go out.
Therefore, if you take these into consideration it should not mean, 100% of the time spent indoors, completely housebound for years on end. And not HAVE to be mutually exclusive with 'f'.

On the point of percentages, I have only given a percentage in this answer, and one other. Mostly I have not used them, but sometimes just saying 'mostly', 'most of the time' 'majority' etc does not give them much of a picture how much something affects me - they can apply whatever interpretation to that they like.
I am a bit confused by you saying that 4 days a week unable to go out is 58%.
Yes, that is a majority.
But that would mean I am able to go out 3 days a week every week.
I wold be so happy if I could mange to do that!!
I have taken an average over a month. On a bad month I can only leave my home on 2 days, on average I'd say 5 - 6 days a month, on a good month 8 days. So yes on a good month I can get out 26% of the time, but these are not that often, and on a bad one it is only 6% time out of the house. I think that saying I am unable to leave my home 80-90% of the time is very accurate.
I am confused why you think I should be careful not to say that?
The percentage really is that high ( I was a bit shocked when I worked it out).
So since the threshold of 'e' is so high to meet, doesn't it help to let them know that?

I am trying to meet descriptor 'e' in my answer, since if they decide I meet it, then I will hopefully not need to go through the whole appeal process. ( I would probably win it, but the thought of having to do it, lose my DLA for a while, and have it hanging over my head for so long is really scary). I think I meet 'f' too, but it sounds like I cannot get 'f' at the moment, so then I'd have to go through the whole appeal process.

Just to clarify though if 'f'' does apply to me. All the psychological difficulties I have on/planning a journey happen a lot, and are also so unpredictable that they can happen any time when I am out, so because of unpredictability, it actually applies to me every time I am out. So 100% of time when having to do that task. But the number of days I can do it a month are only 2-8, a minority. Does that mean it does not apply? I don't know how they work it out.

I have written my answer to 'Going Out' mostly with 'e' in mind, writing about all the difficulties I have that prevent me from going out, and how much of the time this applies, and how unpredictable it is.

However, when I do go out, I have a lot of problems ( with anxiety, distress, panic attacks, not being aware of my surroundings when things like flashbacks or hearing voices happens, suicidal urges etc). It seems only right and logical to me that I must tell them about the problems I have when I do go out.
I kind of got the impression from your answer, that if I am writing with 'e' in mind, for example, then I should not write anything about the problems I have while out ( 'f'). Maybe I have misunderstood? And what you meant was about emphasis?

I have also written in my question on the form, about all the problems I have while out, but I have said how these problems are so unpredictable and difficult to deal with, that they make me much more anxious to go out - because I need the help of someone with me, but most of the time I do not get it. It is one of the main reasons I am unable to cope with going out. My problems outside make me so anxious, that it adds to the anxiety I have leaving the house.
[Although my high levels of anxiety generally, and my very high levels of dissociation ( that mean I cannot really function) are the main reason for me not going out.]


Does the way I have answered make sense to you? To give my problems with 'f' also, but say that they exacerbate 'e' greatly? ( especially with increasing anxiety/panic attacks at thought of going out).
Or are you saying I should only talk about once aspect of how my symptoms affect this task?

Sorry that this is so wordy - find it harder work to write concisely and edit down.

I am not sure Gordon, if you will be the only one to answer, since I am replying to your answer - or if any of the forum moderators/advisers will answer?
Thank you

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5 years 10 months ago #212723 by Gordon
Replied by Gordon on topic Question 3 - on applicable descriptor
Belle

Whilst you may think it illogical that (e) and (f) are exclusive of each other, I'm afraid the law declares them to be.

I mentioned the percentages because 51% would be the majority of the time in a week, but it would not be the majority of days and it is the days that are considered. If you are talking higher percentages then it will not be an issue.

I understand the argument you are making about when you do go out, but I feel that this is offset by your being able to go out on the other days, so you can't be assessed for being unable to follow a route. This is the problem that is created by trying to score for both of these Descriptors.

Gordon

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5 years 10 months ago #212738 by Belle
Replied by Belle on topic Question 3 - on applicable descriptor
Hi Gordon

Thank you for your reply.

What you were saying about percentages makes sense to me now, thanks for the clarification.

On the descriptors, Are you saying that 'f' doesn't apply to me because my percentage of going out is lower than the high percentage I can't go out?
I'm not actually trying to argue for both, but saying that my difficulties with going out are so debilitating, it makes me so anxious that I am more unable to go, it highly increases the percentage I can't go out.
I can't not say anything about the difficulties I have when I do go out, as that would imply that I have none, and am fine when out which is far from the case.

I still don't know if you are saying that I shouldn't write anything at all about the panic attacks, suicidal urges etc I have when I am out, but that seems wrong, as it is not 100% that I am trapped in by my mental health and I do sometimes go out. So I will just leave it as it is, and see what happens.

Thanks for your help.

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5 years 10 months ago #212742 by Gordon
Replied by Gordon on topic Question 3 - on applicable descriptor
Belle

No I am saying that if you argue that you can't go out then it will undermine your arguments that you cannot follow a route.

Gordon

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