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PIP points query
- creditf
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6 years 10 months ago #190590 by creditf
PIP points query was created by creditf
My wife has just been moved from DLA to PIP
She has been awarded 8 points for daily living
She had polio as a child, has a flail leg and walks everywhere with two sticks.
She also has urinary incontinence. When she gets up in the morning she has to pee immediately,and sometimes in the night. She can't wear pads or pants overnight as she gets too hot and gets recurring thrush and cystitis
My questions:-
1) She has a potty beside the bed and they have given her 2 points for using an aid but as she can't walk without her sticks I have to empty,wash and return the potty for her
So should this not count as her needing assistance rather than an aid?
And if so should it be assistance with toilet needs (4 points) or assistance with incontinence needs (6 points)?
2) She does the cooking,I'm rubbish, but she can't carry and food, pots etc around the kitchen as she needs both sticks to move around
They have given her 2 points for needing an aid but we can't imagine any aid she could use. She is so wobbly she would not be safe using any wheeled contraption, even if our kitchen had room for one
I read in the B&W guide that DWP guidelines say not to take carrying in the kitchen into account but that we should try anyway
Has anyone successfully claimed points for assistance with carrying items in the kitchen?
Thanks for any advice you can give
She has been awarded 8 points for daily living
She had polio as a child, has a flail leg and walks everywhere with two sticks.
She also has urinary incontinence. When she gets up in the morning she has to pee immediately,and sometimes in the night. She can't wear pads or pants overnight as she gets too hot and gets recurring thrush and cystitis
My questions:-
1) She has a potty beside the bed and they have given her 2 points for using an aid but as she can't walk without her sticks I have to empty,wash and return the potty for her
So should this not count as her needing assistance rather than an aid?
And if so should it be assistance with toilet needs (4 points) or assistance with incontinence needs (6 points)?
2) She does the cooking,I'm rubbish, but she can't carry and food, pots etc around the kitchen as she needs both sticks to move around
They have given her 2 points for needing an aid but we can't imagine any aid she could use. She is so wobbly she would not be safe using any wheeled contraption, even if our kitchen had room for one
I read in the B&W guide that DWP guidelines say not to take carrying in the kitchen into account but that we should try anyway
Has anyone successfully claimed points for assistance with carrying items in the kitchen?
Thanks for any advice you can give
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- Gordon
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6 years 10 months ago #190595 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic PIP points query
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You may struggle to score for needing assistance with her toilet needs as the underlying problem (according to your post) is due to her mobility and not due to the urgency of her needing to use the toilet.
Assistance in this context is more to do with the claimant using the toilet and cleaning themselves afterwards.
The DWP will argue that there is (a) no need for her to stand in the kitchen, a suitable perching stool would allow her to be seated with both hands free and (b), that there is no need for her to carry heavy pots, she can move an empty one and then fill them using a more suitable container and she can remove hot food using a slotted spoon to a plate or similar.
You also say that she does the cooking which does imply that she manages despite her limitations, unless you can show a need for assistance in the kitchen then I think you will struggle to score higher.
Did she score for Mobility, in particular for the Moving Around activity? If she didn't then part of your problem in scoring for the Daily Living component may be due to the DWP's view of her mobility.
Gordon
You may struggle to score for needing assistance with her toilet needs as the underlying problem (according to your post) is due to her mobility and not due to the urgency of her needing to use the toilet.
Assistance in this context is more to do with the claimant using the toilet and cleaning themselves afterwards.
The DWP will argue that there is (a) no need for her to stand in the kitchen, a suitable perching stool would allow her to be seated with both hands free and (b), that there is no need for her to carry heavy pots, she can move an empty one and then fill them using a more suitable container and she can remove hot food using a slotted spoon to a plate or similar.
You also say that she does the cooking which does imply that she manages despite her limitations, unless you can show a need for assistance in the kitchen then I think you will struggle to score higher.
Did she score for Mobility, in particular for the Moving Around activity? If she didn't then part of your problem in scoring for the Daily Living component may be due to the DWP's view of her mobility.
Gordon
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6 years 10 months ago #190601 by creditf
Replied by creditf on topic PIP points query
Well as for urinary urgency she has a burning need to go as soon as she gets out of bed, she wouldn't make it to the toilet nor could she hold on long enough to put on pads or pants
Its not just heavy posts in the kitchen ,she can't carry anything, even food from the fridge to the cooker because of using sticks in both hands. Sitting or standing don't affect this
She had 2 previous assessments for DLA by Atos doctors and received high rate mobility for life. Unfortunately she has only been given 4 points for PIP mobility
Its not just heavy posts in the kitchen ,she can't carry anything, even food from the fridge to the cooker because of using sticks in both hands. Sitting or standing don't affect this
She had 2 previous assessments for DLA by Atos doctors and received high rate mobility for life. Unfortunately she has only been given 4 points for PIP mobility
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6 years 10 months ago #190621 by Gordon
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Replied by Gordon on topic PIP points query
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I'm not saying that she cannot score the extra points, but you will definitely need to think about the way that you describe her problems.
You need to consider the risk of a new DM removing points as well as adding them during an MR. Also revision rates at MR are low and you may need to go on to appeal, are you prepared to do this?
As she only has 8 points currently she will need all four of the extra points from the higher Descriptors for an Enhanced award, are there any other activities that you could argue for higher points for?
Two points from your latest post; the issues she has first thing in the morning are unlikely to meet the majority of days test as I assume that she does not have this problem later in the day. Secondly, the food preparation and cooking, you say that she has problems with lifting even trivial things in the kitchen and yet she still does all of the cooking according to your first post, there is a contradiction in this that you haven't explained.
Gordon
I'm not saying that she cannot score the extra points, but you will definitely need to think about the way that you describe her problems.
You need to consider the risk of a new DM removing points as well as adding them during an MR. Also revision rates at MR are low and you may need to go on to appeal, are you prepared to do this?
As she only has 8 points currently she will need all four of the extra points from the higher Descriptors for an Enhanced award, are there any other activities that you could argue for higher points for?
Two points from your latest post; the issues she has first thing in the morning are unlikely to meet the majority of days test as I assume that she does not have this problem later in the day. Secondly, the food preparation and cooking, you say that she has problems with lifting even trivial things in the kitchen and yet she still does all of the cooking according to your first post, there is a contradiction in this that you haven't explained.
Gordon
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6 years 10 months ago #190657 by creditf
Replied by creditf on topic PIP points query
Her urinary incontinence is all day long, every time she needs to go its sudden and urgent.
During the day she is wearing her leg caliper and shoes and so can ,usually ,make it to the loo.
But she can't make it to the loo first thing in the morning as she would not be wearing her caliper,which she can't walk without, nor would she be able to put it and her shoes on in time.
If they accept the use of a potty as an aid then as she can't carry it to empty it she effectively can't use it without assistance
I did find this excerpt from a DWP guide but its from Oct 2015 so maybe out of date. I have underlined what I think relevant to my wife:-
"Managing incontinence means the ability to manage involuntary evacuation of the bladder and/or bowel, including the use of a collecting device or self catheterisation and cleaning oneself afterwards.If a claimant can manage a collecting device or catheter independently, without assistance or the use of an aid, they are able to manage incontinence unaided and they would not score under this activity. Note that a collecting device includes a stoma bag and incontinence pads."
Also the CAB site recommends ticking yes to help with incontinence if: "someone helps you (even if it's just with your aid - for example, dealing with a used portable bidet) "
Her problem in the kitchen is not with lifting things ,its with carrying things between the fridge,chopping board,cooker and sink. She can stand still and do the chopping/cooking but if she needs to move around the kitchen she has to use both her sticks which means she can't hold any items in her hands so I have to do that for her
So far she has 2 points for a kitchen aid,2 for a bathing aid,2 for help dressing lower body, 2 for incontinence aid. I guess they could take some away but I don't think so and we would go to appeal
Thanks for your input so far, its helpful to get an alternative point of view
During the day she is wearing her leg caliper and shoes and so can ,usually ,make it to the loo.
But she can't make it to the loo first thing in the morning as she would not be wearing her caliper,which she can't walk without, nor would she be able to put it and her shoes on in time.
If they accept the use of a potty as an aid then as she can't carry it to empty it she effectively can't use it without assistance
I did find this excerpt from a DWP guide but its from Oct 2015 so maybe out of date. I have underlined what I think relevant to my wife:-
"Managing incontinence means the ability to manage involuntary evacuation of the bladder and/or bowel, including the use of a collecting device or self catheterisation and cleaning oneself afterwards.If a claimant can manage a collecting device or catheter independently, without assistance or the use of an aid, they are able to manage incontinence unaided and they would not score under this activity. Note that a collecting device includes a stoma bag and incontinence pads."
Also the CAB site recommends ticking yes to help with incontinence if: "someone helps you (even if it's just with your aid - for example, dealing with a used portable bidet) "
Her problem in the kitchen is not with lifting things ,its with carrying things between the fridge,chopping board,cooker and sink. She can stand still and do the chopping/cooking but if she needs to move around the kitchen she has to use both her sticks which means she can't hold any items in her hands so I have to do that for her
So far she has 2 points for a kitchen aid,2 for a bathing aid,2 for help dressing lower body, 2 for incontinence aid. I guess they could take some away but I don't think so and we would go to appeal
Thanks for your input so far, its helpful to get an alternative point of view
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6 years 10 months ago #190666 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic PIP points query
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I've presented the arguments that the DWP will likely make (see below), do you think that you can successfully argue the contrary? If you do then request an MR but be aware there is a strong likelihood that you will have to go to appeal, the DM is not medically trained and they often struggle to make the connection between a claimant's limitations and how it affects their ability to complete a PIP activity.
Two last points, could she carry the ingredients in a bag? I think that the lack of points for Mobility is undermining her scoring in the DL section, I would recommend that you have a second look at this as well, specifically in regard to reliability.
Gordon
I've presented the arguments that the DWP will likely make (see below), do you think that you can successfully argue the contrary? If you do then request an MR but be aware there is a strong likelihood that you will have to go to appeal, the DM is not medically trained and they often struggle to make the connection between a claimant's limitations and how it affects their ability to complete a PIP activity.
Two last points, could she carry the ingredients in a bag? I think that the lack of points for Mobility is undermining her scoring in the DL section, I would recommend that you have a second look at this as well, specifically in regard to reliability.
Gordon
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