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7 years 4 months ago #176839 by annie
Replied by annie on topic FAO Gordon
Hi Gordon,
Thank you for your response.
No points were scored at all on this activity.
Cream needs to be applied to the whole body. Points were scored on being unable to dress or undress the lower body (but not for upper) and washing lower body (but not upper).
Re what points we are trying to score on 'managing treatments' ... there is reference to the cream in sections highlighted but not in the 'managing treatments' part where no points were awarded instead the assessor just focused on the tablets. Based on the length of time taken for my mum to apply I thought that points would be awarded for this.Through his medication my Dad gets more time as the day progresses so if anything, might be able to manage to wash and apply cream to his face but nothing else. I'm not sure if he apply sufficient pressure or whether it's a token swipe of the flannel.
You mention 'Dressing the upper body and washing the upper body go hand in hand, have you covered this in both of the relevant activities?' ... I'm not sure what exactly you mean?
Thanks again,
Wendy
Thank you for your response.
No points were scored at all on this activity.
Cream needs to be applied to the whole body. Points were scored on being unable to dress or undress the lower body (but not for upper) and washing lower body (but not upper).
Re what points we are trying to score on 'managing treatments' ... there is reference to the cream in sections highlighted but not in the 'managing treatments' part where no points were awarded instead the assessor just focused on the tablets. Based on the length of time taken for my mum to apply I thought that points would be awarded for this.Through his medication my Dad gets more time as the day progresses so if anything, might be able to manage to wash and apply cream to his face but nothing else. I'm not sure if he apply sufficient pressure or whether it's a token swipe of the flannel.
You mention 'Dressing the upper body and washing the upper body go hand in hand, have you covered this in both of the relevant activities?' ... I'm not sure what exactly you mean?
Thanks again,
Wendy
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7 years 4 months ago #176843 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic FAO Gordon
Wendy
Somewhat out of order.
Many of the Descriptors for Washing and Dressing have similar roots, so if someone had problems washing their lower body then I would expect them to also have problems with dressing their lower body and vice versa. This can be reasonably extended to the application of the cream.
So, if it is accepted that he cannot wash and dress below the waist then you have a strong argument that any cream that is required to be applied below the waist would also require assistance. In the same vein, if the DWP's view is that he has no problems washing and dressing above the waist then I would not expect them to see there being a problem with him applying the cream above the waist, but as I suggested in my post, applying cream is not the same as dressing or even washing so there may still be an argument that he would have problems with this, but it would be a lot easier if it was accepted that he did have a problem above the waist for these two activities.
Whilst you might want to continue to pursue his issues with his upper body, you seem to already have a strong argument for his lower body based on the points that he has already scored.
Gordon
Somewhat out of order.
Many of the Descriptors for Washing and Dressing have similar roots, so if someone had problems washing their lower body then I would expect them to also have problems with dressing their lower body and vice versa. This can be reasonably extended to the application of the cream.
So, if it is accepted that he cannot wash and dress below the waist then you have a strong argument that any cream that is required to be applied below the waist would also require assistance. In the same vein, if the DWP's view is that he has no problems washing and dressing above the waist then I would not expect them to see there being a problem with him applying the cream above the waist, but as I suggested in my post, applying cream is not the same as dressing or even washing so there may still be an argument that he would have problems with this, but it would be a lot easier if it was accepted that he did have a problem above the waist for these two activities.
Whilst you might want to continue to pursue his issues with his upper body, you seem to already have a strong argument for his lower body based on the points that he has already scored.
Gordon
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7 years 4 months ago - 7 years 4 months ago #176861 by annie
Replied by annie on topic FAO Gordon
Hi Gordon,
Thank you for going through that it way that you did. This is much appreciated.
Just double-checked the points .. 2 points were awarded to be able to dress or undress their lower body and 3 points for washing and bathing. For the latter the assessor focused on needing assistance to get in and out of the bath or shower (not being able to raise legs to full height and only raising arms to shoulder level). Does that still make the lower body solid for the cream?
Re: Upper body. You previously mentioned that the GP could perform a physical examination regarding this (to be included in a report). However, if the assessor has already stated "“he could put both of his arms to his lower back. he could raise both of his arms to around shoulder level" would anything that the GP says in a report be ignored if it is contrary to this?
My Dad always needs help with the second sleeve with shirts and doesn't wear jumpers because of the increased pain it causes even with help. It's just frustrating when he can't dress without that help that but it isn't recognised.
Is it unusual that the 'cream' is mentioned in the assessor's report under 'History', 'Medication and Treatment' but then ignored in 'Functional History' (focusing only on the tablets) and not mentioned in 'Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition' (as quoted earlier)? It just seems to have been forgotten!
There are two inaccuracies with regards to assessor comments re 'History'. Psoriasis since birth. This affects all of his body, he has flare ups which are worse in winter. The last time he had a flare up was March, flares up about 2-3 times a year. Symptoms, itchy patches on all of his body and limbs which he scratches. Treatment, cream. Specialist input under the care of his GP'.
I spoke to my parents re this. Dad was asked if there were 'flare ups'. Dad responded with 'It flares up all of the time, worse in winter'. The 'March' and '2-3 times a year' bit are not accurate. Should these be challenged?
CONFIDENTIAL BIT:
Wendy
Thank you for going through that it way that you did. This is much appreciated.
Just double-checked the points .. 2 points were awarded to be able to dress or undress their lower body and 3 points for washing and bathing. For the latter the assessor focused on needing assistance to get in and out of the bath or shower (not being able to raise legs to full height and only raising arms to shoulder level). Does that still make the lower body solid for the cream?
Re: Upper body. You previously mentioned that the GP could perform a physical examination regarding this (to be included in a report). However, if the assessor has already stated "“he could put both of his arms to his lower back. he could raise both of his arms to around shoulder level" would anything that the GP says in a report be ignored if it is contrary to this?
My Dad always needs help with the second sleeve with shirts and doesn't wear jumpers because of the increased pain it causes even with help. It's just frustrating when he can't dress without that help that but it isn't recognised.
Is it unusual that the 'cream' is mentioned in the assessor's report under 'History', 'Medication and Treatment' but then ignored in 'Functional History' (focusing only on the tablets) and not mentioned in 'Managing therapy or monitoring a health condition' (as quoted earlier)? It just seems to have been forgotten!
There are two inaccuracies with regards to assessor comments re 'History'. Psoriasis since birth. This affects all of his body, he has flare ups which are worse in winter. The last time he had a flare up was March, flares up about 2-3 times a year. Symptoms, itchy patches on all of his body and limbs which he scratches. Treatment, cream. Specialist input under the care of his GP'.
I spoke to my parents re this. Dad was asked if there were 'flare ups'. Dad responded with 'It flares up all of the time, worse in winter'. The 'March' and '2-3 times a year' bit are not accurate. Should these be challenged?
CONFIDENTIAL BIT:
This message contains confidential information
Wendy
Last edit: 7 years 4 months ago by Gordon.
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7 years 4 months ago #176883 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic FAO Gordon
Wendy
Although getting in and out of a shower or bath scores higher than washing the lower body, I don't think that you can assume that the latter is included in the former as the wording of the relevant Descriptors is very different. In other words, unless they have made specific reference to problems with washing the lower part of the body then you should assume that they don't believe that there are.
This may be something you want to argue.
Your father is not required to complete the PIP activities pain free, but any pain that prevents him from completing an activity should be taken into account. So assuming that this is the case then you need to explain why attempting to put on a shirt causes sufficient pain to prevent him doing it, you also need to explain why an aid would not allow him to do so as well.
I think you need to present a clearer picture of how your father's skin problems affect him, references to flare-ups only two or three times a year are unlikely to be helpful as PIP operates on the basis of an issue being on the majority of days, so you need to explain the implications of his not completing his twice a day treatments so that the requirement is seen as a necessity.
Gordon
Although getting in and out of a shower or bath scores higher than washing the lower body, I don't think that you can assume that the latter is included in the former as the wording of the relevant Descriptors is very different. In other words, unless they have made specific reference to problems with washing the lower part of the body then you should assume that they don't believe that there are.
This may be something you want to argue.
Your father is not required to complete the PIP activities pain free, but any pain that prevents him from completing an activity should be taken into account. So assuming that this is the case then you need to explain why attempting to put on a shirt causes sufficient pain to prevent him doing it, you also need to explain why an aid would not allow him to do so as well.
I think you need to present a clearer picture of how your father's skin problems affect him, references to flare-ups only two or three times a year are unlikely to be helpful as PIP operates on the basis of an issue being on the majority of days, so you need to explain the implications of his not completing his twice a day treatments so that the requirement is seen as a necessity.
Gordon
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7 years 4 months ago #176885 by annie
Replied by annie on topic FAO Gordon
Hi Gordon,
Re: lower body - even though it has been mentioned for dressing and undressing are you saying that even though this is linked to bathing but hasn't been mentioned by the assessor in the bathing activity then that could put the cream argument in jeopardy?
Or does the assessor just focus on the justification for the highest points (3 points and not 2) within the bathing category?
Re: flare ups. What has been stated by the assessor is inaccurate. I spoke to my parents re this. Dad was asked if there were 'flare ups'. Dad responded with 'It flares up all of the time, worse in winter'. The 'March' and '2-3 times a year' bit are not accurate. How is it best to react to this?
Re: I think you need to present a clearer picture of how your father's skin problems affect him. Do you mean mentally?
Many thanks,
Wendy
Re: lower body - even though it has been mentioned for dressing and undressing are you saying that even though this is linked to bathing but hasn't been mentioned by the assessor in the bathing activity then that could put the cream argument in jeopardy?
Or does the assessor just focus on the justification for the highest points (3 points and not 2) within the bathing category?
Re: flare ups. What has been stated by the assessor is inaccurate. I spoke to my parents re this. Dad was asked if there were 'flare ups'. Dad responded with 'It flares up all of the time, worse in winter'. The 'March' and '2-3 times a year' bit are not accurate. How is it best to react to this?
Re: I think you need to present a clearer picture of how your father's skin problems affect him. Do you mean mentally?
Many thanks,
Wendy
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7 years 4 months ago - 7 years 4 months ago #176888 by Gordon
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Replied by Gordon on topic FAO Gordon
Wendy
Putting on socks and trousers require similar physical activities to washing the lower body and I assume to applying the cream to his lower body. If it is accepted that he has problems with the former then it lends weight to your arguing that it should be accepted that he has problems with the other two as well.
The highest pointed Descriptor that the claimant meets will always be the one that goes to the award, but in this case it is more than this as the wording of the Descriptors are quite different from each other, so the 3 point Descriptor is not a more restrictive version of the 2 point one.
Even If the flare-ups were more frequent than documented, you are going to struggle to show that he is affected for the majority of days, that's why I am suggesting that you explain the physical problems that he might suffer if the cream is not applied.
If his depression impacts on his abilities to complete the PIP activities then you need to explain why this is the case and what impact it has.
Gordon
Putting on socks and trousers require similar physical activities to washing the lower body and I assume to applying the cream to his lower body. If it is accepted that he has problems with the former then it lends weight to your arguing that it should be accepted that he has problems with the other two as well.
The highest pointed Descriptor that the claimant meets will always be the one that goes to the award, but in this case it is more than this as the wording of the Descriptors are quite different from each other, so the 3 point Descriptor is not a more restrictive version of the 2 point one.
Even If the flare-ups were more frequent than documented, you are going to struggle to show that he is affected for the majority of days, that's why I am suggesting that you explain the physical problems that he might suffer if the cream is not applied.
If his depression impacts on his abilities to complete the PIP activities then you need to explain why this is the case and what impact it has.
Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Last edit: 7 years 4 months ago by Gordon.
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