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UC/ESA Tribunal for work capability
- Mike1878
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2 years 9 months ago #269379 by Mike1878
UC/ESA Tribunal for work capability was created by Mike1878
Hi I have a big problem. I prepared my appeal and sent it off while regularly ringing CAB and Advice Line for help during the last year. The tribunal letter came last week saying the hearing is on 20th April. I called CAB straight away and for whatever reason, they've forgotten to assign me to a case worker and they said its now far too short notice to be represented on 20th by them. They said they'd get a rep to call me and advise but that they can't actually go with me.
So I am upset over that obviously, after being in regular contact with them for a whole year it still wasn't enough time for them to help me. Although I know its not their fault and they're underfunded and understaffed. I do understand.
Its definitely made me panic though, I never intended to face the tribunal alone. I told the CAB from the get-go I will need to be represented and that I won't be able to cope on my own. I suffer horribly with anxiety, migraines, insomnia among other things. But those 3 things are currently severe and make every day life very difficult, nevermind something like this.
I now have 9 days and I don't know what to do. The lady from CAB said she will get back to me to let me know if its worth postponing the hearing so that they can rep me eventually. But she asked for my case files to be sent over so she could read. Still yet to hear back from her.
My question is.. what are my options? I am so lost in this and don't know if anything I've done so far has even helped me or hindered me. I was given very little guidance by the CAB/Advice Line.
So I suffer with severe migraines every day. I may get maybe 2 weeks per year where I get a mild enough headache where I can function normally. I also suffer horribly with sleeping difficulties. I get 2 hours maybe and thats all my body lets me do.. I am currently being investigated by the sleep clinic for suspected sleep apnoea. I am fairly sure I have it, as I stop breathing at night. So the 2 hours i do manage to get don't even rest me and then the day repeats.. no matter what I do, whether I try to nap through the day or I just stay up I still get 2 hours again until maybe 7-10 days later my body finally seems to give up and I sleep for 14 hours. It has been repeating this cycle for years but both the migraines and insomnia have gotten a lot worse during the last 3 years.
So I told the CAB about this, and they said they won't really consider any of that. I am better trying to tell them about how all that adds to my anxiety (which it does a great deal). So I did.. but in my mind the migraines/insomnia cripple me more than enough to be considered a disability. Anyway I tried to touch on the anxiety and depression in my diary/appeal but couldn't help thinking it looked very staged as I tried to cover everything. I am just full of doubt.. I have no confidence in attending this hearing alone. I just know I won't cope.
Should I postpone? I am also worried that it will be another 6+ months before they send me the new date. All the while.. Job Centre wants me to miraculously become fit enough for work and they're getting more and more persistent and heartless with their pressure.
I don't have much money. I can't even afford to eat every day anymore. If I could afford it I'd try and find legal help but maybe there are other organisations who could represent me on short notice?
Cheers
So I am upset over that obviously, after being in regular contact with them for a whole year it still wasn't enough time for them to help me. Although I know its not their fault and they're underfunded and understaffed. I do understand.
Its definitely made me panic though, I never intended to face the tribunal alone. I told the CAB from the get-go I will need to be represented and that I won't be able to cope on my own. I suffer horribly with anxiety, migraines, insomnia among other things. But those 3 things are currently severe and make every day life very difficult, nevermind something like this.
I now have 9 days and I don't know what to do. The lady from CAB said she will get back to me to let me know if its worth postponing the hearing so that they can rep me eventually. But she asked for my case files to be sent over so she could read. Still yet to hear back from her.
My question is.. what are my options? I am so lost in this and don't know if anything I've done so far has even helped me or hindered me. I was given very little guidance by the CAB/Advice Line.
So I suffer with severe migraines every day. I may get maybe 2 weeks per year where I get a mild enough headache where I can function normally. I also suffer horribly with sleeping difficulties. I get 2 hours maybe and thats all my body lets me do.. I am currently being investigated by the sleep clinic for suspected sleep apnoea. I am fairly sure I have it, as I stop breathing at night. So the 2 hours i do manage to get don't even rest me and then the day repeats.. no matter what I do, whether I try to nap through the day or I just stay up I still get 2 hours again until maybe 7-10 days later my body finally seems to give up and I sleep for 14 hours. It has been repeating this cycle for years but both the migraines and insomnia have gotten a lot worse during the last 3 years.
So I told the CAB about this, and they said they won't really consider any of that. I am better trying to tell them about how all that adds to my anxiety (which it does a great deal). So I did.. but in my mind the migraines/insomnia cripple me more than enough to be considered a disability. Anyway I tried to touch on the anxiety and depression in my diary/appeal but couldn't help thinking it looked very staged as I tried to cover everything. I am just full of doubt.. I have no confidence in attending this hearing alone. I just know I won't cope.
Should I postpone? I am also worried that it will be another 6+ months before they send me the new date. All the while.. Job Centre wants me to miraculously become fit enough for work and they're getting more and more persistent and heartless with their pressure.
I don't have much money. I can't even afford to eat every day anymore. If I could afford it I'd try and find legal help but maybe there are other organisations who could represent me on short notice?
Cheers
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- BIS
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2 years 9 months ago #269412 by BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by BIS on topic UC/ESA Tribunal for work capability
Hi Mike
I'm sorry that you have found yourself in a position where the CAB may not be able to support you through your appeal.
You have four possible options:
1. Postpone - in the hope CAB can support you.(As you have noted this could cause you a lot more stress and leave you longer without potential money).
2. Attend the tribunal alone - (which you have said you feel unable to do)
3. Attend the tribunal with friend or family member - who could support you and even speak if necessary. (You may not have anyone)
4. You could contact the tribunal service and ask them to make a paper-based judgement. (This option is favoured by some, but it has its disadvantages because you won't have the option to explain anything and you have already raised questions about what you have written).
I can't tell you what you should do. You know yourself, your medical condition and your limitations.
I wonder if you have been given some poor advice regarding your migraines. It would depend on how bad they are, but they can be viewed as a disability, depending on the severity and frequency. Clearly, you have stated this is a daily problem. Have a look at the attached link from the migraine trust and their view of claiming benefits. migrainetrust.org/wp-content/uploads/202...sheet-2021-AWweb.pdf.
If you think the information you have already provided about your migraines because of the advice you were given, you may want to postpone to give you time to add additional information to your claim (which you could do)..
I don't have the figures but I know there is a lower success rate for tribunals that have a paper-based decision and this will be down to the fact the person can't explain anything to the panel.
I'm sorry that I can't give you more help than that. It's horrible to be faced with such a decision and worrying about whether you have chosen the right option. Unfortunately, it's only something you can do.
BIS
I'm sorry that you have found yourself in a position where the CAB may not be able to support you through your appeal.
You have four possible options:
1. Postpone - in the hope CAB can support you.(As you have noted this could cause you a lot more stress and leave you longer without potential money).
2. Attend the tribunal alone - (which you have said you feel unable to do)
3. Attend the tribunal with friend or family member - who could support you and even speak if necessary. (You may not have anyone)
4. You could contact the tribunal service and ask them to make a paper-based judgement. (This option is favoured by some, but it has its disadvantages because you won't have the option to explain anything and you have already raised questions about what you have written).
I can't tell you what you should do. You know yourself, your medical condition and your limitations.
I wonder if you have been given some poor advice regarding your migraines. It would depend on how bad they are, but they can be viewed as a disability, depending on the severity and frequency. Clearly, you have stated this is a daily problem. Have a look at the attached link from the migraine trust and their view of claiming benefits. migrainetrust.org/wp-content/uploads/202...sheet-2021-AWweb.pdf.
If you think the information you have already provided about your migraines because of the advice you were given, you may want to postpone to give you time to add additional information to your claim (which you could do)..
I don't have the figures but I know there is a lower success rate for tribunals that have a paper-based decision and this will be down to the fact the person can't explain anything to the panel.
I'm sorry that I can't give you more help than that. It's horrible to be faced with such a decision and worrying about whether you have chosen the right option. Unfortunately, it's only something you can do.
BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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- Mike1878
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2 years 9 months ago #269415 by Mike1878
Replied by Mike1878 on topic UC/ESA Tribunal for work capability
Thanks, BIS.
I have printed that PDF out and will read it today. I didn't even know there was a migraine trust so this is very helpful! How can I have gone to the neurologists, GP's and such all these years and never been told? I will surely find something in there that can give me some ideas of how to approach the tribunal when I eventually go there.
I think I could ask a family member to go with me, but preparing them for what they will be asked seems too much to ask as I am not close enough with my family for them to be aware enough of my situation.
I do have a friend who does all sorts for me who would definitely be able to speak on my behalf about how much my conditions affect me. I hassle her daily about my pain, anxiety and lack of sleep. I swear she keeps me from losing my mind!! But asking her to take a day off work to attend is also where that becomes too much. I already feel like I am a burden to her.
If only they gave me more than 2 weeks notice I could have prepared but it feels like postponing seems like the best option. In your experience how long will they take to send me a new date? The hearing will be in Liverpool if that helps you with a wild guess.
Also can you look at the last question at the bottom of my post again please? I asked if there are any other organisations who will represent me. But, also, after seeing your signature I'd like to know who are the professionals? I have no idea who handles this stuff apart from CAB.
P.S. I am so much better at forum posts than I am filling in forms. The whole thing was a mess. I just want someone to look at what I have done and tell me if I have done it wrong or right.. I am so anxious that I have contradicted myself some way or failed to give relevant info.
During my initial assessment, I tried to focus on the migraines, as I genuinely thought it would be enough as I KNEW that I could not work while in that much constant pain. But then after speaking to the CAB, they told me they don't really consider pain levels, and that I need to focus on how I am affected by the pain. So I feel like my initial assessment may have seemed like I was OK when I wasn't. Then after that I tried to pile on how I am affected during the appeal.
Will they cross check the two and say well why didn't you say this stuff during your assessment??
Sorry for all the questions.
Cheers and I appreciate it your help very much.
I have printed that PDF out and will read it today. I didn't even know there was a migraine trust so this is very helpful! How can I have gone to the neurologists, GP's and such all these years and never been told? I will surely find something in there that can give me some ideas of how to approach the tribunal when I eventually go there.
I think I could ask a family member to go with me, but preparing them for what they will be asked seems too much to ask as I am not close enough with my family for them to be aware enough of my situation.
I do have a friend who does all sorts for me who would definitely be able to speak on my behalf about how much my conditions affect me. I hassle her daily about my pain, anxiety and lack of sleep. I swear she keeps me from losing my mind!! But asking her to take a day off work to attend is also where that becomes too much. I already feel like I am a burden to her.
If only they gave me more than 2 weeks notice I could have prepared but it feels like postponing seems like the best option. In your experience how long will they take to send me a new date? The hearing will be in Liverpool if that helps you with a wild guess.
Also can you look at the last question at the bottom of my post again please? I asked if there are any other organisations who will represent me. But, also, after seeing your signature I'd like to know who are the professionals? I have no idea who handles this stuff apart from CAB.
P.S. I am so much better at forum posts than I am filling in forms. The whole thing was a mess. I just want someone to look at what I have done and tell me if I have done it wrong or right.. I am so anxious that I have contradicted myself some way or failed to give relevant info.
During my initial assessment, I tried to focus on the migraines, as I genuinely thought it would be enough as I KNEW that I could not work while in that much constant pain. But then after speaking to the CAB, they told me they don't really consider pain levels, and that I need to focus on how I am affected by the pain. So I feel like my initial assessment may have seemed like I was OK when I wasn't. Then after that I tried to pile on how I am affected during the appeal.
Will they cross check the two and say well why didn't you say this stuff during your assessment??
Sorry for all the questions.
Cheers and I appreciate it your help very much.
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- LL26
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2 years 9 months ago #269422 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic UC/ESA Tribunal for work capability
Hi Mike,
You can certainly phone or write in to try and get the hearing postponed. The danger is that CAB may not be available for next time, and there may well be a long delay.
Whilst I appreciate that it is very poor that CAB have let you down. (You may wish to make a complaint?) BIS is right you do have a number of options. That said, you are able to give the best evidence of your condition. Perhaps if you could get a friend to support you, and assist you at the hearing , you can then tell the tribunal about how your migraines (and other health issues) affect you. Tell the tribunal of the pain, and how it affects everything you do, even if these are simple tasks. Have a think also about the cumulative effect of having to work and how this would affect your health. maybe you tried working a while back and you just became more ill?
(Even if you don't score enough points you can still be given either limited capability for work, or Ltd Capability for work activity under the 'substantial risk' rules -if you can show that doing work or work related activity would cause a substantial risk to your health then you should get LCW and/or LCWRA. - Factors to be taken into consideration include how you might get to work, undergoing interviews etc as well as work itself.
I definitely think that pain and migraines ARE relevant to whether or not you can claim UC or ESA. Descriptor 10 deals with altered consciousness. It is possible (depending on how exactly your migraine affects you,) that migraines alone would comprise this section. It is certainly worth arguing. Descriptors for UC/ESA apply when you can't do the activity for the majority of time you try and undertake the activity. (The DWP Guidance for this descriptor suggests migraines aren't sufficient - but this is not law - there is currently no caselaw that precludes migraines so it it definitely worth arguing!)
If you do attend the tribunal hearing, tell the tribunal that you were told conflicting advice by CAB if the tribunal mention that what you are saying is now somewhat different from the form. Of course, it may well be that due to your migraines, you have poor memory, and hence you neither process or remember things properly?
You could try looking here for someone to help advicelocal.uk/
- but it may be too difficult at this late stage. However, you may e able to find someone able to help, or at least help you secure an adjournment so they can represent you properly on a different date.
I do hope you can resolve this successfully. Please let us know how you get on.
LL26
You can certainly phone or write in to try and get the hearing postponed. The danger is that CAB may not be available for next time, and there may well be a long delay.
Whilst I appreciate that it is very poor that CAB have let you down. (You may wish to make a complaint?) BIS is right you do have a number of options. That said, you are able to give the best evidence of your condition. Perhaps if you could get a friend to support you, and assist you at the hearing , you can then tell the tribunal about how your migraines (and other health issues) affect you. Tell the tribunal of the pain, and how it affects everything you do, even if these are simple tasks. Have a think also about the cumulative effect of having to work and how this would affect your health. maybe you tried working a while back and you just became more ill?
(Even if you don't score enough points you can still be given either limited capability for work, or Ltd Capability for work activity under the 'substantial risk' rules -if you can show that doing work or work related activity would cause a substantial risk to your health then you should get LCW and/or LCWRA. - Factors to be taken into consideration include how you might get to work, undergoing interviews etc as well as work itself.
I definitely think that pain and migraines ARE relevant to whether or not you can claim UC or ESA. Descriptor 10 deals with altered consciousness. It is possible (depending on how exactly your migraine affects you,) that migraines alone would comprise this section. It is certainly worth arguing. Descriptors for UC/ESA apply when you can't do the activity for the majority of time you try and undertake the activity. (The DWP Guidance for this descriptor suggests migraines aren't sufficient - but this is not law - there is currently no caselaw that precludes migraines so it it definitely worth arguing!)
If you do attend the tribunal hearing, tell the tribunal that you were told conflicting advice by CAB if the tribunal mention that what you are saying is now somewhat different from the form. Of course, it may well be that due to your migraines, you have poor memory, and hence you neither process or remember things properly?
You could try looking here for someone to help advicelocal.uk/
- but it may be too difficult at this late stage. However, you may e able to find someone able to help, or at least help you secure an adjournment so they can represent you properly on a different date.
I do hope you can resolve this successfully. Please let us know how you get on.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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2 years 9 months ago #269423 by denby
Replied by denby on topic UC/ESA Tribunal for work capability
Hi Mike, another option you could try is
disabilityrights.org.uk/
I can't speak for whether they could help but they are a bona fide organisation so it would do no harm to call or email them ASAP to find out. It's no-win, no-fee, 25% of backpay, nothing going forward, so you can't lose.
Best wishes,
Denby
disabilityrights.org.uk/
I can't speak for whether they could help but they are a bona fide organisation so it would do no harm to call or email them ASAP to find out. It's no-win, no-fee, 25% of backpay, nothing going forward, so you can't lose.
Best wishes,
Denby
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- Mollie
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2 years 9 months ago #269437 by Mollie
Replied by Mollie on topic UC/ESA Tribunal for work capability
CAB is talking rubbish (sorry CAB, but don't pass opinions on things you do not understand) in respect of Sleep Apnea. It can a very serious condition with repercussions on your physical health as well as mental health. My husband suffers from it and has had a CPAP machine for nearly 20 years now and will never be discharged in respect of it. Check out sleep-apnoea-trust.org/ for information on your condition. You will probably have to spell it as even GPs do not understand the seriousness of this illness and how it impacts on all aspects of your life.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Mike1878, denby, Gary, LL26
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