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Advice PIP Enhanced Rate Mobility ASD + ADHD Driving
- lornakett
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1 year 11 months ago #276470 by lornakett
Advice PIP Enhanced Rate Mobility ASD + ADHD Driving was created by lornakett
Hi
At 16 my son who has ASD, ADHD and anxiety was awarded Enhanced rate care and enhanced rate mobility.
His Enhamced rate mobility was due to the fact he could not go any where alone due to his anxiety and implusivity.
We used his enhanced rate mobility to have a car and he had driving lessons. He is now able to drive, and because of the security of being in his own space can now drive regular known routes alone, as long as we are near by and could rescue him if something unexpected happened.
Its now time for renewal.... If he looses the Enhanced mobility he will be unable to go out alone, but I'm not sure with the car he currently meets the criteria. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation.
Any advice on how to complete the 'what has changed form' would be most welcome
thanks
At 16 my son who has ASD, ADHD and anxiety was awarded Enhanced rate care and enhanced rate mobility.
His Enhamced rate mobility was due to the fact he could not go any where alone due to his anxiety and implusivity.
We used his enhanced rate mobility to have a car and he had driving lessons. He is now able to drive, and because of the security of being in his own space can now drive regular known routes alone, as long as we are near by and could rescue him if something unexpected happened.
Its now time for renewal.... If he looses the Enhanced mobility he will be unable to go out alone, but I'm not sure with the car he currently meets the criteria. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation.
Any advice on how to complete the 'what has changed form' would be most welcome
thanks
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- peter
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1 year 11 months ago #276491 by peter
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by peter on topic Advice PIP Enhanced Rate Mobility ASD + ADHD Driving
Hi lornakett
I appreciate your concern in this and, yes, it feels like a difficult situation.
However, it could be argued that the only thing that has changed here is that the benefit he is currently receiving is being used to purchase an “aid”; an “aid” that enables him to travel more safely as it protects him from the things that cause his debilitating anxiety. It could be argued that the car, in this case, could be likened to a double amputees wheelchair. After all without the chair that person would not be able to travel anywhere without assistance.
I am not saying that you would succeed with this argument but to me it’s a reasonable angle to put forward.
I would welcome the views of others.
Regards
Peter
I appreciate your concern in this and, yes, it feels like a difficult situation.
However, it could be argued that the only thing that has changed here is that the benefit he is currently receiving is being used to purchase an “aid”; an “aid” that enables him to travel more safely as it protects him from the things that cause his debilitating anxiety. It could be argued that the car, in this case, could be likened to a double amputees wheelchair. After all without the chair that person would not be able to travel anywhere without assistance.
I am not saying that you would succeed with this argument but to me it’s a reasonable angle to put forward.
I would welcome the views of others.
Regards
Peter
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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- denby
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1 year 11 months ago #276502 by denby
Replied by denby on topic Advice PIP Enhanced Rate Mobility ASD + ADHD Driving
One reason I plan to apply for PIP is that an NHS senior hospital physio told me "You should apply for disability benefit so you can buy private hydrotherapy as you are not priority to get it in the NHS" . That was despite an NHS MSK Professional sending me there for that express purpose.
Kind of parallel argument I feel.
Kind of parallel argument I feel.
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- LL26
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1 year 11 months ago #276505 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic Advice PIP Enhanced Rate Mobility ASD + ADHD Driving
Hi lornakett,
Whilst there is scope to argue the use of an aid for most descriptors, this doesn't apply in the same way to mobility descriptors. For Mobility 1 d or f you can score points using an orientation, but this is a specific device solely for deaf or visually impaired people - eg a white stick.
Your post describes the ability to go on familiar routes - so it is open to you to argue 1d ie help required for unfamiliar journeys -which gives 10 points - obviously this is only standard rate (unless you can also score for poor physical walking ability under Mobility 2.)
I have looked up some caselaw and it seems that an actual presence of a person is required, even though the person doesn't necessarily say or do anything particular, as the presence enough maybe sufficiently reassuring.
I think you need to do some form of analysis.
Are there problems with unfamiliar places? - the analysis I have set out below will apply equally to unfamiliar places. This is the starting point if unfamiliar journeys can't be achieved to the appropriate standards you score 10points.
Familiar Journeys
Where does son regularly go?
Are there other places that he sometimes goes to?
These will both be 'familiar' journeys.
Notwithstanding that son drives himself (alone) - is this for all of these journeys, or only some of them? - If the latter - Why can he do some journeys and not others?
How does son perform these journeys? There are 4 criteria to be fulfilled.
Is he 'safe' - I don't think this refers to the manner of driving - but I guess it could - if son can't drive safely then irrespective of him passing his licence he shouldn't be driving!
'safety' for PIP means whether there is a risk of substantial harm to him or another. Hence arriving in a calm manner, not feeling suicidal, or wanting to self harm, not wishing to cause harm to another, not having a panic attack, or a fit etc could comprise being 'safe'.
Is the journey done to an acceptable standard? - Again there is likely to be an overlap with safety - perhaps lesser degrees of feeling unwell, driving in a peculiar manner, winding the window down and shouting at other drivers etc might fall foul of achieving an acceptable standard. High levels of pain could fail the acceptable standard test, perhaps too, breathlessness and other physical symptoms, it could include cowering in the corner for several hours afterwards. Does your son actually arrive at the destination, or does he give up and go home?
What about reasonable time - aside from heavy traffic etc does your son get to the destination no less than twice the time it would take an non disabled person? So, if your son couldn't drive down a road whose name started with the letter T, because he thought someone would attack him there, and hence he had to drive a very long distance avoiding all the 'T' named roads, it is likely he would be outside the time limit. Or of course if he persisted in only driving at 10 mph on all roads he would also be too slow.
Lastly think repetition - can he do more than one journey a day if this was reasonably required, or even several journeys, to the required level complying with safety, time and acceptable standards, each and every time?
These criteria have to apply for the majority of days.
If you son fails to achieve the 4 criteria above, even though he may well somehow get to his destination, then he CAN NOT (for PIP purposes) complete a familiar journey.
If there are very few familiar journeys he can complete sufficiently well, the he will fail the majority of days and/or repetition test. Maybe one journey a day can be done ok, but stress levels or other health reasons preclude further journeys - if so he can't 'repeat'.
Remember that it is likely that going to eg school, will be one journey, and the return is a separate journey - same as with going to a shop. Can your son, eg go to school and back, then go to the post box and back, and then to visit your aunt, and finally to go to the cinema and back? These are the sort of multiple journeys that many people make over the course of the day - what stops your son doing these repeat journeys?
If you were with your son, would this allow him to complete all/repeat journeys within the 4 criteria?
Think of this - disabled people often muddle on through life, ignoring high pain, and safety issues etc because they have no choice. Or they avoid doing certain things because it is too difficult. Think of a person who loves wearing smart clothes such as a shirt and tie. Due to crippling arthritis, they have no option but to wear easy pull on clothes with no buttons etc. It is not unreasonable for a person to dress in a shirt and tie - if the person had help then he would be able to wear the clothes of his choice - hence in this scenario caselaw has determined that the claimant would receive points for dressing in accordance with the level of his disability. Likewise if your son only goes alone to a selective few places, basically avoiding confronting places or journeys he should receive points even though he can do some journeys alone. You need to consider the 'majority' pattern.
Please also consider the journeys holistically. Journeys can comprise a quick few yards round the block to the post box or several hundred miles, and all things in between. Whilst your son may well drive for the most part of the journey, inevitably there has to be a fraction on foot. At the very least it will be a couple of steps into the car from the front door, and the same at the end, however it could be considerably more if parking can't be achieved nearby the destination. What happens during the 'on foot' parts? Perhaps not too much a couple of steps from the front door, but what about the walk across the car park, or across the school playground to the building?
Does your son meet the 4 criteria above on ALL parts of the journey?
If you son fails just one of the 4 criteria on a 'familiar journey' and this can be remedied by having someone with him, even though son persists in driving alone, you can still get points for 1f.
Mobility 1 is cumulative - if son can, for the majority of days, to the required standards, go on a familiar journey and get back on his own, but struggles with unfamiliar journeys he can score under 1d.
Think then about 1e -
1e involves 'overwhelming psychological distress' this could happen even whether he is accompanied or not. Does this happen? OPD may not be relevant. However, even if your son completes journeys, and he does indeed have OPD, proving this may be difficult!
Perhaps the existence of a car has improved your son's confidence, he may genuinely be able to make familiar journeys to the required standards and hence unfortunately can't achieve 12 points. You may have to accept this, however hard this may seem. Nevertheless, if you son still has the kind of difficulties I have outlined above, whilst there might be some improvement in confidence/less disability in terms of going out and about, your son may still have significant impairment and still qualify for enhanced rate mobility. If the latter assumption is indeed correct having taken into account all the relevant criteria etc) then you need to be very careful. It would not be wrong to say that son's ability to undertake journeys has remained the same. Explain the exact help required/problems that occur when going on a journey. Mention the car if you wish, but really explain how son still can't use public transport, can't make journeys on foot, and still has eg a significant level of distress/anxiety etc in his car, and can only make a very few selective journeys. You can refer to the 4 criteria above. (Regulation 4 PIP Regs 2013- the 'majority of days' appears in Reg 7. Reg 7 also says that if 2 or more descriptor levels in a set apply, if equally prevalent the higher one must be scored.)
I hope this helps.
LL26
Whilst there is scope to argue the use of an aid for most descriptors, this doesn't apply in the same way to mobility descriptors. For Mobility 1 d or f you can score points using an orientation, but this is a specific device solely for deaf or visually impaired people - eg a white stick.
Your post describes the ability to go on familiar routes - so it is open to you to argue 1d ie help required for unfamiliar journeys -which gives 10 points - obviously this is only standard rate (unless you can also score for poor physical walking ability under Mobility 2.)
I have looked up some caselaw and it seems that an actual presence of a person is required, even though the person doesn't necessarily say or do anything particular, as the presence enough maybe sufficiently reassuring.
I think you need to do some form of analysis.
Are there problems with unfamiliar places? - the analysis I have set out below will apply equally to unfamiliar places. This is the starting point if unfamiliar journeys can't be achieved to the appropriate standards you score 10points.
Familiar Journeys
Where does son regularly go?
Are there other places that he sometimes goes to?
These will both be 'familiar' journeys.
Notwithstanding that son drives himself (alone) - is this for all of these journeys, or only some of them? - If the latter - Why can he do some journeys and not others?
How does son perform these journeys? There are 4 criteria to be fulfilled.
Is he 'safe' - I don't think this refers to the manner of driving - but I guess it could - if son can't drive safely then irrespective of him passing his licence he shouldn't be driving!
'safety' for PIP means whether there is a risk of substantial harm to him or another. Hence arriving in a calm manner, not feeling suicidal, or wanting to self harm, not wishing to cause harm to another, not having a panic attack, or a fit etc could comprise being 'safe'.
Is the journey done to an acceptable standard? - Again there is likely to be an overlap with safety - perhaps lesser degrees of feeling unwell, driving in a peculiar manner, winding the window down and shouting at other drivers etc might fall foul of achieving an acceptable standard. High levels of pain could fail the acceptable standard test, perhaps too, breathlessness and other physical symptoms, it could include cowering in the corner for several hours afterwards. Does your son actually arrive at the destination, or does he give up and go home?
What about reasonable time - aside from heavy traffic etc does your son get to the destination no less than twice the time it would take an non disabled person? So, if your son couldn't drive down a road whose name started with the letter T, because he thought someone would attack him there, and hence he had to drive a very long distance avoiding all the 'T' named roads, it is likely he would be outside the time limit. Or of course if he persisted in only driving at 10 mph on all roads he would also be too slow.
Lastly think repetition - can he do more than one journey a day if this was reasonably required, or even several journeys, to the required level complying with safety, time and acceptable standards, each and every time?
These criteria have to apply for the majority of days.
If you son fails to achieve the 4 criteria above, even though he may well somehow get to his destination, then he CAN NOT (for PIP purposes) complete a familiar journey.
If there are very few familiar journeys he can complete sufficiently well, the he will fail the majority of days and/or repetition test. Maybe one journey a day can be done ok, but stress levels or other health reasons preclude further journeys - if so he can't 'repeat'.
Remember that it is likely that going to eg school, will be one journey, and the return is a separate journey - same as with going to a shop. Can your son, eg go to school and back, then go to the post box and back, and then to visit your aunt, and finally to go to the cinema and back? These are the sort of multiple journeys that many people make over the course of the day - what stops your son doing these repeat journeys?
If you were with your son, would this allow him to complete all/repeat journeys within the 4 criteria?
Think of this - disabled people often muddle on through life, ignoring high pain, and safety issues etc because they have no choice. Or they avoid doing certain things because it is too difficult. Think of a person who loves wearing smart clothes such as a shirt and tie. Due to crippling arthritis, they have no option but to wear easy pull on clothes with no buttons etc. It is not unreasonable for a person to dress in a shirt and tie - if the person had help then he would be able to wear the clothes of his choice - hence in this scenario caselaw has determined that the claimant would receive points for dressing in accordance with the level of his disability. Likewise if your son only goes alone to a selective few places, basically avoiding confronting places or journeys he should receive points even though he can do some journeys alone. You need to consider the 'majority' pattern.
Please also consider the journeys holistically. Journeys can comprise a quick few yards round the block to the post box or several hundred miles, and all things in between. Whilst your son may well drive for the most part of the journey, inevitably there has to be a fraction on foot. At the very least it will be a couple of steps into the car from the front door, and the same at the end, however it could be considerably more if parking can't be achieved nearby the destination. What happens during the 'on foot' parts? Perhaps not too much a couple of steps from the front door, but what about the walk across the car park, or across the school playground to the building?
Does your son meet the 4 criteria above on ALL parts of the journey?
If you son fails just one of the 4 criteria on a 'familiar journey' and this can be remedied by having someone with him, even though son persists in driving alone, you can still get points for 1f.
Mobility 1 is cumulative - if son can, for the majority of days, to the required standards, go on a familiar journey and get back on his own, but struggles with unfamiliar journeys he can score under 1d.
Think then about 1e -
1e involves 'overwhelming psychological distress' this could happen even whether he is accompanied or not. Does this happen? OPD may not be relevant. However, even if your son completes journeys, and he does indeed have OPD, proving this may be difficult!
Perhaps the existence of a car has improved your son's confidence, he may genuinely be able to make familiar journeys to the required standards and hence unfortunately can't achieve 12 points. You may have to accept this, however hard this may seem. Nevertheless, if you son still has the kind of difficulties I have outlined above, whilst there might be some improvement in confidence/less disability in terms of going out and about, your son may still have significant impairment and still qualify for enhanced rate mobility. If the latter assumption is indeed correct having taken into account all the relevant criteria etc) then you need to be very careful. It would not be wrong to say that son's ability to undertake journeys has remained the same. Explain the exact help required/problems that occur when going on a journey. Mention the car if you wish, but really explain how son still can't use public transport, can't make journeys on foot, and still has eg a significant level of distress/anxiety etc in his car, and can only make a very few selective journeys. You can refer to the 4 criteria above. (Regulation 4 PIP Regs 2013- the 'majority of days' appears in Reg 7. Reg 7 also says that if 2 or more descriptor levels in a set apply, if equally prevalent the higher one must be scored.)
I hope this helps.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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- lornakett
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1 year 11 months ago #276512 by lornakett
Replied by lornakett on topic Advice PIP Enhanced Rate Mobility ASD + ADHD Driving
Thank you this is really helpful.
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