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"Reasonable standard" versus "any" regarding which journeys count
- Adam
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1 year 11 months ago #276795 by Adam
"Reasonable standard" versus "any" regarding which journeys count was created by Adam
I'm currently helping my mum with her PIP reassessment – I'm her carer and appointee – and I'm a bit confused about how the different conditions and tests work for the "Planning and following a journey" activity.
My mum has refused to get treatment for some fairly severe medical issues because they'd require her to travel by bus for an hour or so to get to the hospital, and she's too anxious and stressed about being around other people to be able to do that. I think that's fairly clear evidence that "overwhelming distress" is in play; she's too distressed to be able to do the activity. Being able to travel for a necessary medical appointment seems like a fairly clear example of "as often as you reasonably need to". So I'd think there's a good argument that she cannot make journeys to a reasonable standard because of overwhelming psychological distress.
The thing I'm worried about is the "any journey" bit. Because she can and does make short journeys by public transport. She only travels at quiet times, and it takes her longer than it otherwise would (more than twice as long for unfamiliar journeys, maybe 1½ times as long for familiar journeys), but she clearly can do it. Does the fact that she can make some journeys most of the time mean she doesn't meet the bar for "Cannot undertake any journey because it would cause overwhelming psychological distress to
the claimant" because she can't do it to a reasonable standard, or does the fact that she can undertake some journeys mean this is automatically unachievable?
My mum has refused to get treatment for some fairly severe medical issues because they'd require her to travel by bus for an hour or so to get to the hospital, and she's too anxious and stressed about being around other people to be able to do that. I think that's fairly clear evidence that "overwhelming distress" is in play; she's too distressed to be able to do the activity. Being able to travel for a necessary medical appointment seems like a fairly clear example of "as often as you reasonably need to". So I'd think there's a good argument that she cannot make journeys to a reasonable standard because of overwhelming psychological distress.
The thing I'm worried about is the "any journey" bit. Because she can and does make short journeys by public transport. She only travels at quiet times, and it takes her longer than it otherwise would (more than twice as long for unfamiliar journeys, maybe 1½ times as long for familiar journeys), but she clearly can do it. Does the fact that she can make some journeys most of the time mean she doesn't meet the bar for "Cannot undertake any journey because it would cause overwhelming psychological distress to
the claimant" because she can't do it to a reasonable standard, or does the fact that she can undertake some journeys mean this is automatically unachievable?
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- LL26
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1 year 11 months ago #276800 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic "Reasonable standard" versus "any" regarding which journeys count
Hi Adam,
You are right to think that this is confusing!
Regulation 7 provides that PIP activities have to be done for the 'majority of days'.
There is also regulation 4(2A) which requires activities to be done
safely
repeatedly
in a reasonable time
to an acceptable standard
all 4 criteria must be fulfilled.
Caselaw has determined that 'any' does not mean all. Basically the word 'any' means either familiar or unfamiliar journey. But given that reg 7 applies it can not possibly mean all , ie every single one.
The rational behind reg 7 is to allow some leeway. Many people have better days where their illness is less restricting, and they can perhaps do a little bit more. Imagine how difficult it would be to police if people weren't allowed to do any journeys! The law also reflects that some journeys are vital, such as GP visits, supermarket etc
I think you need to do some form of analysis. I have gone through a generic analysis - some aspects may not apply, on which case ignore.
Are there problems with unfamiliar places? - the analysis I have set out below will apply equally to unfamiliar places. This is the starting point if unfamiliar journeys can't be achieved to the appropriate standards you score 10points.
Familiar Journeys
Where does mum regularly go?
Are there other places that she sometimes goes to?
These will be 'familiar' journeys.
Is she ok on foot or going by car? (Journey can be long distance by car or train, or could simply be a stroll round the corner to the post box.)
Can mum drive herself to places she knows?
If mum can drive, does she drive alone?
Notwithstanding that mum could drive (alone) - is this for all of these journeys, or only some of them? - If the latter - Why can she do some journeys and not others?
How does mum perform these journeys? There are 4 criteria to be fulfilled.
Is she 'safe' - I don't think this refers to the manner her licence he shouldn't be driving!
'safety' for PIP means whether there is a risk of substantial harm to her or another. Hence arriving in a calm manner, not feeling suicidal, or wanting to self harm, not wishing to cause harm to another, not having a panic attack, or a fit etc could comprise being 'safe'.
Is the journey done to an acceptable standard? - Again there is likely to be an overlap with safety - perhaps lesser degrees of feeling unwell, driving in a peculiar manner, winding the window down and shouting at other drivers etc might fall foul of achieving an acceptable standard. High levels of pain could fail the acceptable standard test, perhaps too, breathlessness and other physical symptoms, it could include cowering in the corner for several hours afterwards. Does your mum actually arrive at the destination, or does she give up and go home if going alone?
What about reasonable time - aside from heavy traffic etc does your mum get to the destination no less than twice the time it would take an non disabled person? Ignore physical mobility here as well. (That is descriptor 2) Think whether mum needs to 'go the long way round' to avoid something that triggers anxiety - it could be something like a yellow house because it brings back childhood memories of a house where trauma occurred. It could be she has a phobia about dogs etc. Does mum dither en route as she gets lost, can't follow the directions she might be given?
Lastly think repetition - can she do more than one journey a day if this was reasonably required, or even several journeys, to the required level complying with safety, time and acceptable standards, each and every time?
These criteria have to apply for the majority of days.
If you mum fails to achieve the 4 criteria above, even though he may well somehow get to his destination, then she CAN NOT (for PIP purposes) complete a familiar journey.
If there are very few familiar journeys she can complete sufficiently well, the she will fail the majority of days and/or repetition test. Maybe one journey a day can be done ok, but stress levels or other health reasons preclude further journeys - if so she can't 'repeat'.
Remember that it is likely that going to eg shop, will be one journey, Is it likley that mum will be able to go to the shop and back, then go to the post box and back, and then to visit your aunt, and finally to go to the cinema and back in the same day? These are the sort of multiple journeys that many people make over the course of the day - what stops your mum doing these repeat journeys?
If you were with your mum, would this allow her to complete all/repeat journeys within the 4 criteria?
Think of this - disabled people often muddle on through life, ignoring high pain, and safety issues etc because they have no choice. Or they avoid doing certain things because it is too difficult. Think of a person who loves wearing smart clothes such as a shirt and tie. Due to crippling arthritis, they have no option but to wear easy pull on clothes with no buttons etc. It is not unreasonable for a person to dress in a shirt and tie - if the person had help then he would be able to wear the clothes of his choice - hence in this scenario caselaw has determined that the claimant would receive points for dressing in accordance with the level of his disability. Likewise if your mum only goes alone to a selective few places, basically avoiding confronting places or journeys she should receive points even though he can do some journeys alone. You need to consider the 'majority' pattern.
Please also consider the journeys holistically. Journeys can comprise a quick few yards round the block to the post box or several hundred miles, and all things in between. Whilst your mum may well drive/be driven for the most part of the journey, inevitably there has to be a fraction on foot. At the very least it will be a couple of steps into the car from the front door, and the same at the end, however it could be considerably more if parking can't be achieved nearby the destination. What happens during the 'on foot' parts? Perhaps not too much a couple of steps from the front door, but what about the walk across the car park, or across the road into a shop?
Does your mum meet the 4 criteria above on ALL parts of the journey?
If your mum fails just one of the 4 criteria on a 'familiar journey' and this can be remedied by having someone with her, even though mum persists in driving or walking alone, to some places you can still get points for 1f.
Mobility 1 is cumulative - if mum can, for the majority of days, to the required standards, go on a familiar journey and get back on her own, but struggles with unfamiliar journeys he can score under 1d.
Think then about 1e -
1e involves 'overwhelming psychological distress' this could happen even whether she is accompanied or not. Does this happen? OPD may not be relevant. However, even if your mum completes journeys, and she does indeed have OPD, proving this may be difficult!
Perhaps the existence of a car gives more confidence, mum may genuinely be able to make familiar journeys to the required standards and hence unfortunately can't achieve 12 points. Explain the exact help required/problems that occur when going on a journey. Mention the car if relevant, if you wish, but really explain how mum can't use public transport, can't make journeys on foot, and still has eg a significant level of distress/anxiety etc in his car, and can only make a very few selective journeys. Explain the anxiety levels. If the levels of anxiety do not constitute sufficient for OPD anxiety generally may suggest that an 'acceptable standard' is not reached.
If you want to mention about the hospital visits please ascertain whether it a fear of the hospital/doctors rather than an issue with the journey itself.
I think if you do the analysis as suggested above it will give you a clearer idea of how mum does journeys, and the points level you should be aiming for.
You can refer to the 4 criteria above. (Regulation 4 PIP Regs 2013- the 'majority of days' appears in Reg 7. Reg 7 also says that if 2 or more descriptor levels in a set apply, if equally prevalent the higher one must be scored.)
I hope this helps.
You are right to think that this is confusing!
Regulation 7 provides that PIP activities have to be done for the 'majority of days'.
There is also regulation 4(2A) which requires activities to be done
safely
repeatedly
in a reasonable time
to an acceptable standard
all 4 criteria must be fulfilled.
Caselaw has determined that 'any' does not mean all. Basically the word 'any' means either familiar or unfamiliar journey. But given that reg 7 applies it can not possibly mean all , ie every single one.
The rational behind reg 7 is to allow some leeway. Many people have better days where their illness is less restricting, and they can perhaps do a little bit more. Imagine how difficult it would be to police if people weren't allowed to do any journeys! The law also reflects that some journeys are vital, such as GP visits, supermarket etc
I think you need to do some form of analysis. I have gone through a generic analysis - some aspects may not apply, on which case ignore.
Are there problems with unfamiliar places? - the analysis I have set out below will apply equally to unfamiliar places. This is the starting point if unfamiliar journeys can't be achieved to the appropriate standards you score 10points.
Familiar Journeys
Where does mum regularly go?
Are there other places that she sometimes goes to?
These will be 'familiar' journeys.
Is she ok on foot or going by car? (Journey can be long distance by car or train, or could simply be a stroll round the corner to the post box.)
Can mum drive herself to places she knows?
If mum can drive, does she drive alone?
Notwithstanding that mum could drive (alone) - is this for all of these journeys, or only some of them? - If the latter - Why can she do some journeys and not others?
How does mum perform these journeys? There are 4 criteria to be fulfilled.
Is she 'safe' - I don't think this refers to the manner her licence he shouldn't be driving!
'safety' for PIP means whether there is a risk of substantial harm to her or another. Hence arriving in a calm manner, not feeling suicidal, or wanting to self harm, not wishing to cause harm to another, not having a panic attack, or a fit etc could comprise being 'safe'.
Is the journey done to an acceptable standard? - Again there is likely to be an overlap with safety - perhaps lesser degrees of feeling unwell, driving in a peculiar manner, winding the window down and shouting at other drivers etc might fall foul of achieving an acceptable standard. High levels of pain could fail the acceptable standard test, perhaps too, breathlessness and other physical symptoms, it could include cowering in the corner for several hours afterwards. Does your mum actually arrive at the destination, or does she give up and go home if going alone?
What about reasonable time - aside from heavy traffic etc does your mum get to the destination no less than twice the time it would take an non disabled person? Ignore physical mobility here as well. (That is descriptor 2) Think whether mum needs to 'go the long way round' to avoid something that triggers anxiety - it could be something like a yellow house because it brings back childhood memories of a house where trauma occurred. It could be she has a phobia about dogs etc. Does mum dither en route as she gets lost, can't follow the directions she might be given?
Lastly think repetition - can she do more than one journey a day if this was reasonably required, or even several journeys, to the required level complying with safety, time and acceptable standards, each and every time?
These criteria have to apply for the majority of days.
If you mum fails to achieve the 4 criteria above, even though he may well somehow get to his destination, then she CAN NOT (for PIP purposes) complete a familiar journey.
If there are very few familiar journeys she can complete sufficiently well, the she will fail the majority of days and/or repetition test. Maybe one journey a day can be done ok, but stress levels or other health reasons preclude further journeys - if so she can't 'repeat'.
Remember that it is likely that going to eg shop, will be one journey, Is it likley that mum will be able to go to the shop and back, then go to the post box and back, and then to visit your aunt, and finally to go to the cinema and back in the same day? These are the sort of multiple journeys that many people make over the course of the day - what stops your mum doing these repeat journeys?
If you were with your mum, would this allow her to complete all/repeat journeys within the 4 criteria?
Think of this - disabled people often muddle on through life, ignoring high pain, and safety issues etc because they have no choice. Or they avoid doing certain things because it is too difficult. Think of a person who loves wearing smart clothes such as a shirt and tie. Due to crippling arthritis, they have no option but to wear easy pull on clothes with no buttons etc. It is not unreasonable for a person to dress in a shirt and tie - if the person had help then he would be able to wear the clothes of his choice - hence in this scenario caselaw has determined that the claimant would receive points for dressing in accordance with the level of his disability. Likewise if your mum only goes alone to a selective few places, basically avoiding confronting places or journeys she should receive points even though he can do some journeys alone. You need to consider the 'majority' pattern.
Please also consider the journeys holistically. Journeys can comprise a quick few yards round the block to the post box or several hundred miles, and all things in between. Whilst your mum may well drive/be driven for the most part of the journey, inevitably there has to be a fraction on foot. At the very least it will be a couple of steps into the car from the front door, and the same at the end, however it could be considerably more if parking can't be achieved nearby the destination. What happens during the 'on foot' parts? Perhaps not too much a couple of steps from the front door, but what about the walk across the car park, or across the road into a shop?
Does your mum meet the 4 criteria above on ALL parts of the journey?
If your mum fails just one of the 4 criteria on a 'familiar journey' and this can be remedied by having someone with her, even though mum persists in driving or walking alone, to some places you can still get points for 1f.
Mobility 1 is cumulative - if mum can, for the majority of days, to the required standards, go on a familiar journey and get back on her own, but struggles with unfamiliar journeys he can score under 1d.
Think then about 1e -
1e involves 'overwhelming psychological distress' this could happen even whether she is accompanied or not. Does this happen? OPD may not be relevant. However, even if your mum completes journeys, and she does indeed have OPD, proving this may be difficult!
Perhaps the existence of a car gives more confidence, mum may genuinely be able to make familiar journeys to the required standards and hence unfortunately can't achieve 12 points. Explain the exact help required/problems that occur when going on a journey. Mention the car if relevant, if you wish, but really explain how mum can't use public transport, can't make journeys on foot, and still has eg a significant level of distress/anxiety etc in his car, and can only make a very few selective journeys. Explain the anxiety levels. If the levels of anxiety do not constitute sufficient for OPD anxiety generally may suggest that an 'acceptable standard' is not reached.
If you want to mention about the hospital visits please ascertain whether it a fear of the hospital/doctors rather than an issue with the journey itself.
I think if you do the analysis as suggested above it will give you a clearer idea of how mum does journeys, and the points level you should be aiming for.
You can refer to the 4 criteria above. (Regulation 4 PIP Regs 2013- the 'majority of days' appears in Reg 7. Reg 7 also says that if 2 or more descriptor levels in a set apply, if equally prevalent the higher one must be scored.)
I hope this helps.
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: mrs doyle, Gary, anees292
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