- Posts: 15
- Forum
- Members forums
- ESA, PIP and DLA Queries and Results
- PIP - Eating and drinking - difficulty eating nutritiously
× Members
PIP - Eating and drinking - difficulty eating nutritiously
- woody34
- Topic Author
- Offline
Less More
1 year 7 months ago #280310 by woody34
PIP - Eating and drinking - difficulty eating nutritiously was created by woody34
Due to a difficult relationship with food, compounded by the affects of depression and anxiety, my daughter is unable to eat nutritious meals without someone there to provide them for her and to encourage her to eat them. Instead, she eats snacks and sugary drinks. She does have 6 or 7 "nutritious" meals a week (although many of them are takeaways).
This means that (1) most days of week she has one nutritous week, but (2) out of a normal 21 meals a week (or 14 meals if you don't count breakfast), she has a nutritious meal less than 50% of the time.
I think she should score points for needing prompting and supervision, but does the fact she has perhaps one nutritious meal each day mean she shouldn't score points? If she should score points, how can I best explain this on the PIP form?
This means that (1) most days of week she has one nutritous week, but (2) out of a normal 21 meals a week (or 14 meals if you don't count breakfast), she has a nutritious meal less than 50% of the time.
I think she should score points for needing prompting and supervision, but does the fact she has perhaps one nutritious meal each day mean she shouldn't score points? If she should score points, how can I best explain this on the PIP form?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- LL26
- Offline
Less More
- Posts: 1429
1 year 7 months ago #280321 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic PIP - Eating and drinking - difficulty eating nutritiously
Hi woody34,
Unfortunately there was a case about the quality of food or drink -
MM and BJ v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (PIP)
[2016] UKUT 490 (AAC)) - this case stated that descriptor 2 solely concerned the physical act of eating/drinking and getting food or drink to the mouth. Non-nutritious eating did not score points. As a result, it seems unlikely that your daughter can score points here, unless she does indeed need eg help to chop up food, or prompting etc.
What about Preparing Food? If your daughter is not eating properly that is often linked with an inability to prepare fresh meals. Have a look a descriptor 1. If your daughter tends to rely on take away meals, she clearly isn't cooking! Descriptor 1 comprises preparing and cooking a simple meal from fresh ingredients. Relevant tasks would be chopping and peeling, emptying and filling a small pan. (Consider eg lack of grip or strength in hands.) Reading ingredients from a recipe and or cooking times from the packet, knowing what a packet contains. (Are there any learning difficulties, reading problems or cognitive problems?) Does your daughter understand cooking times, getting everything ready at the same time, does she know when something is cooked or does food get burnt or be underdone? - again consider learning difficulties or cognitive deficit.
Consider safety - using knives, getting burnt, also whether there are messes in the kitchen that could constitute trip hazards, or leaving knives etc in a dangerous place, tea cloth over the cooker, leaving taps or gas on. Think also about taste - far too salty, or bitter - being ignorant about the amount of seasoning, or using ingredients that would not go, like custard as gravy.
If your daughter can't stand for very long - some like a perching stool by the cooker might help - think of what other kitchen gadgets, could help - chunky grip knives, timers or notes etc might all comprise 'aid or appliance' and hence score points.
If no amount of aids etc work - then would your assistance (if you were available) help - why do you need to help, what do you help with. If you are effectively the 'chef' and daughter's contribution to the cooking process is very limited, then it is possible to argue the full 8 points under 1f 'cannot prepare and cook food.'
As with all descriptors, think about the 'majority of days' so a one-off cooked meal will not preclude points. The following 4 criteria also apply to all descriptors but I have only listed concerns relevant to cooking etc.)
I have mentioned safety, (cuts, burns, tripping over, undercooked food)
Acceptable standard (that could refer to leaving hazards, mess, too salty food, overcooked food etc)
Reasonable time - more than twice the time of a non disabled person will indicate points.
Repetition - a claimant needs to be able to cook as many meals throughout the day as reasonably required - this is likely to be 3 possibly 4.
I hope this helps.
LL26
Unfortunately there was a case about the quality of food or drink -
MM and BJ v Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (PIP)
[2016] UKUT 490 (AAC)) - this case stated that descriptor 2 solely concerned the physical act of eating/drinking and getting food or drink to the mouth. Non-nutritious eating did not score points. As a result, it seems unlikely that your daughter can score points here, unless she does indeed need eg help to chop up food, or prompting etc.
What about Preparing Food? If your daughter is not eating properly that is often linked with an inability to prepare fresh meals. Have a look a descriptor 1. If your daughter tends to rely on take away meals, she clearly isn't cooking! Descriptor 1 comprises preparing and cooking a simple meal from fresh ingredients. Relevant tasks would be chopping and peeling, emptying and filling a small pan. (Consider eg lack of grip or strength in hands.) Reading ingredients from a recipe and or cooking times from the packet, knowing what a packet contains. (Are there any learning difficulties, reading problems or cognitive problems?) Does your daughter understand cooking times, getting everything ready at the same time, does she know when something is cooked or does food get burnt or be underdone? - again consider learning difficulties or cognitive deficit.
Consider safety - using knives, getting burnt, also whether there are messes in the kitchen that could constitute trip hazards, or leaving knives etc in a dangerous place, tea cloth over the cooker, leaving taps or gas on. Think also about taste - far too salty, or bitter - being ignorant about the amount of seasoning, or using ingredients that would not go, like custard as gravy.
If your daughter can't stand for very long - some like a perching stool by the cooker might help - think of what other kitchen gadgets, could help - chunky grip knives, timers or notes etc might all comprise 'aid or appliance' and hence score points.
If no amount of aids etc work - then would your assistance (if you were available) help - why do you need to help, what do you help with. If you are effectively the 'chef' and daughter's contribution to the cooking process is very limited, then it is possible to argue the full 8 points under 1f 'cannot prepare and cook food.'
As with all descriptors, think about the 'majority of days' so a one-off cooked meal will not preclude points. The following 4 criteria also apply to all descriptors but I have only listed concerns relevant to cooking etc.)
I have mentioned safety, (cuts, burns, tripping over, undercooked food)
Acceptable standard (that could refer to leaving hazards, mess, too salty food, overcooked food etc)
Reasonable time - more than twice the time of a non disabled person will indicate points.
Repetition - a claimant needs to be able to cook as many meals throughout the day as reasonably required - this is likely to be 3 possibly 4.
I hope this helps.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- woody34
- Topic Author
- Offline
Less More
- Posts: 15
1 year 7 months ago #280324 by woody34
Replied by woody34 on topic PIP - Eating and drinking - difficulty eating nutritiously
Thanks, I think I've covered most of that in the preparing and cooking a meal question, but will check.
It's very surprising about the case law. The fact someone can't eat nutritiously seems to me to be equivalent to not successfully eating at all!
It's very surprising about the case law. The fact someone can't eat nutritiously seems to me to be equivalent to not successfully eating at all!
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Gordon
- Offline
Less More
- Posts: 51288
1 year 7 months ago #280330 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic PIP - Eating and drinking - difficulty eating nutritiously
woody34
There is an older UTT Decision that considers undereating
administrativeappeals.decisions.tribunal...px/view.aspx?id=4666
but the later Decision that LL26 refers to effectively supersedes it there is also a Decision that refers to overeating, the same arguments might be usable for the reverse
www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribun...pip-2023-ukut-56-aac
However, I think many of your arguments are undermined by your daughter eating one healthy meal a day. There is no specification as to the number of meals that a claimant should have each day.
Does she have a diagnosis for an eating disorder as this would help a lot?
Gordon
There is an older UTT Decision that considers undereating
administrativeappeals.decisions.tribunal...px/view.aspx?id=4666
but the later Decision that LL26 refers to effectively supersedes it there is also a Decision that refers to overeating, the same arguments might be usable for the reverse
www.gov.uk/administrative-appeals-tribun...pip-2023-ukut-56-aac
However, I think many of your arguments are undermined by your daughter eating one healthy meal a day. There is no specification as to the number of meals that a claimant should have each day.
Does she have a diagnosis for an eating disorder as this would help a lot?
Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Moderators: Gordon, Gary, BIS, Catherine, Wendy, Kelly, greekqueen, peter, Katherine, Super User, Chris, David