PIP Telephone Tribunal Hearing

Hi Coruro

I'm sorry that you find yourself in this position, I really am. It's obvious that you need extra help, but some of the issues that you mention here are outside the scope of the forum (such as the difficulties with social services and support for your son) - so I'm going to focus on your PIP issues even though I know that the other difficulties are an important part of your back story.

I noticed that you said you wished you'd come across the information here earlier, so I think I'm right in assuming that you didn't use it when you first applied for PIP. I think you have had the same difficulties that many people have in not understanding the entire process and what could count against you. As I say, you are not alone in this, and even those of us who have been looking at it for years still get caught out.

Your tribunal was clearly a horrible experience, but I have to tell you one thing you need to come to terms with. The Tribunal had the right to ask about Carers Allowance, as do assessors when they assess you for PIP. It generally happens to any claimants receiving PIP who also claim Carers Allowance.

One of the criteria for Carers Allowance, as you know, is that a claimant must give care for at least 35 hours a week. If that claimant says they have severe disabilities, the DWP have the right to question how a person can do both. Now, plenty of people do get PIP and Carers Allowance, but there are some claimants who have lost their Carers Allowance because they have been awarded enhanced PIP. So I know it seems unfair, but you are not alone in being asked about it and what you need is to try and answer any questions they have in a way that doesn't harm your own claim. It's tough, but you need to come to terms with it.

So what do you do next? As you say, you're a damn good, caring, loving mum, and you carry on because of your son. Please go back to your GP and ask for extra help if needed, and use a service like the Samaritans if you need some instant support. { Call 116 123)

As you said before, you don't have the energy to fight the appeal. You could look through the statement of reasons and see if they made any errors in applying the law, but this is not something we can help you with. It's not easy to find advice from local welfare services, but I have provided a link to see if there is any in your area. advicelocal.uk/.

You have asked whether losing the Tribunal will affect your next review for PIP. They will be aware that you didn't win, but I think you should work on what you can do to answer the questions differently to try and increase your chances of an improved award—if that's what you want. I would start by looking through the Guide to PIP claims and reviews and comparing how questions were answered to what you previously said. You might see things you never said that you could include. Your review isn't due just yet, so do a little bit at a time when you feel well enough.

You could consider keeping a diary. There is a template on the drop-down menu of the PIP guides. This means you can log what's going on with you. Keep the focus entirely on you and how your disabilities affect your daily life. They are looking to see that your difficulties affect you the majority of the time. If you could keep it for at least a month, that might help. Don't worry if you're too ill to fill it in - you can later just put "In bed" or "too ill" to explain a gap.

I don't know what you originally wrote on a form, but you need to be aware of saying things that give the impression of contradictory evidence. It can be very easy to do that when you're suffering from brain fog and the DWP are always looking for it. So for instance - your son has considerable disabilities, you are his primary carer and I think you said he's currently not at school at all. So when you're in pain - can he occupy himself at all? Do you have to lie on the sofa and just hope he doesn't need you for some time? Do you have to take extra painkillers? Do you sob because of the pain? You said the pain makes you nauseous - do you have any pain medication that works? Are you afraid of taking painkillers because you have to look after your son? Do you put the television on and hope that he will watch that for a while?

I could ask any number of questions and the only reason for asking those is to get you to think about information that you may not be giving them. In your answers you want to give a narrative about how hard it is for you. I know that you have tried to do this, but I think the DWP has the impression you are superwoman because the love and dedication for your son always comes first. (And by the way you are Superwoman - but you don't want to be for the DWP). You may not be able to change their impressions, but you need to ensure your focus in your answers is on your disabilities and how they affect you. The more you talk about your precious son on your claim form, the more you set yourself up to be questioned about what you do.

I'm not suggesting you lie here - but this is your form - not his. I know from personal experience from my own family members that you have to be open about what you can't do - even if you feel guilty about it and you need to focus on your disabilities. Remember the people reading your form may have no experience of having a condition like fibromyalgia. It's not enough to say you're in pain. How does that pain manifest itself? Does the pain stop you from getting out of bed as quickly as someone who doesn't have the condition? You say you grip onto the furniture to get around - but how often does that happen? Do you have to sit down in case you fall?

In your answers, try to be clear about which condition is causing the symptoms in each question. If you have to repeat yourself over each of the questions - do so. If you have letters confirming any diagnosis and there are no red flags in the letters - refer to them. You put something like, I am unable to cook any meals because of the pain in my hands caused by my fibromyalgia (see letter dated 3/10/23 from Dr X). I do not have the grip to handle a knife and after several occasions when I cut myself, my partner now cooks the main meal. When I'm alone, I only eat crisps... Although I take 30mg of .(drug) this only gives me temporary relief, and I still find myself dropping things .....etc etc"

Obviously, I made that up. Your answer will be personal to you, but I'm trying to get over that. You need to give examples that demonstrate how difficult it is for you outside of your son's considerable difficulties and disabilities. Also, don't include information that is not relevant to your disabilities and the specific PIP criteria.

I would also suggest you read the post from LL26 (one of our mods that she wrote in answer to someone else. There's a lot in here that would apply to you and you should be emphasising in your reply

(LL26’s post)

Regulation 4(2A) PIP Regs 2013 provides that all PIP descriptor activities have to be completed
• safely
• repeatedly
• to an acceptable standard
• within a reasonable time
This is the so called 'reliability' criteria - all 4 must apply- if you fail to meet even just one of the four this indicates you can't do that descriptor and may need help, an aid or actually can not do the task
Safely - is there a substantial risk that harm might occur? So, if you have epilepsy, and a fit could occur causing danger then this indicates eg supervision for bathing- it doesn't matter whether the likelihood of the fit is infrequent; clearly a fit in the bath could have very serious consequences. Safety issues could comprise dropping knives, or hot pans/food whilst cooking or eating, but could also include leaving the cooker on, and running the risk of fire etc. Falls indicate safety issues, not hearing traffic coming could indicate the need for supervision if out walking.

Acceptable standard is not defined but kind of means the level of completion expected by others. Leaving large messes whilst cooking, or constantly spilling food off the plate or food probably isn't acceptable. Only being able to hear half the words being said is unlikely to be acceptable. Putting on clothes upside down or back to front with buttons not aligned with the button holes is unlikely to be acceptable.
In addition, significant amounts of pain will also be 'unacceptable".

Reasonable time- this is defined as no more than twice that of non disabled person. If you take too long again this shows a need for an aid or physical help.
Some of these criteria overlap- if you are too slow then this probably isn't acceptable. Leaving slip hazards in kitchen could be both unsafe and unacceptable.
Finally consider repetition, tasks need to be done as many times a day as reasonable. The repetition rate will vary across the descriptors.You might wish to cook 3 times a day. Toilet needs with incontinence might need to be managed 10 or more times per day. With journeys and walking this could be 6 or 7 times per day. Bearing in mind the journey could be by car or public transport, but inevitably will involve at least a few short steps to the car and into the nearby building. It would not be unreasonable for someone to take kids to school, go to supermarket, need to go and get new shoes, walk back to car via card shop. Go home.Write card and go to post box. Pick up the kids. Visit mother in evening. None of these journeys or small amounts of walking would be unreasonable, and perhaps one of two more might be required. Communication could however be required 24/7.

You need to be able to do all the required repeats acceptably safely and within the appropriate time for each descriptor. If you fail to repeat except for a trivial time eg 5 mins of the day you can't communicate you can achieve points in accordance with the level of disability under the relevant descriptor.

A descriptor will be met if you can't achieve any/all of the 4 criteria for the majority of days. This means that if you have a better day every so often, that won't preclude points/award of PIP.

Fatigue could also comprise non acceptable standard. It is easy to consider each descriptor task in isolation. Think about the descriptors holistically.
So...if I asked you, do you cook? - if you told me yes, but only when I don't go walking, and it's not the day I have a bath. This would suggest you can't repeat all the activities across the day. Likewise if fatigue, pain breathlessness increase in blood pressure, etc makes activities too slow, this might indicate a problem with repetition as well as being unacceptable standard, and perhaps not safe.

Filling out PIP forms requires a bit of lateral thinking. Consider what makes the activity difficult or impossible. If you had help, why would you need it, and what help would be required. Is it always at the same time, or does it depend on energy/pain levels etc? Try and quantify the help you get, or realistically should have. Disabled people who live alone or have little help often have a stark choice- try and do something, - it may take a while, be only half done, it may risk safety etc, but the alternative is to sit in the chair and do nothing.

Be realistic as to your limitations!
If walking (or other descriptor activity) is now worse or needs more help, is now much slower, more unsafe etc, then a higher points value is appropriate, and this may be more than what you scored last time.

I'm not suggesting anything I have said will make a substantial difference. The system is not easy to navigate. Come back and ask if you have any further questions, and we will try to help

BIS

Hi Coruro

I'm sorry they thought some part of your form was 'fabricated' - that's very hard to take, and I'm not surprised that it has upset you.

BIS

Hi Coruro,
Have another read of the WSOR. Forget, for a moment the subjective criticisms- the tribunal feeling you were exaggerating etc. This is an opinion.
What was actually said etc. There should be a summary of evidence normally at the beginning. If you made notes or can compare to the official recording see what you actually said. If not compare the summary of evidence and how the tribunal explain this. Are there discrepancies? Often the tribunal will note evidence eg 'client says walks 100m to mother's each week' it then later says' we feel that because client can manage to walk to mum's 200m each day, we think she has exaggerated her pain...no points awarded...'
This sort of thing DOES happen and I have sadly seen it on more than one occasion! In my example the evidence acknowledged by the tribunal.(Oral evidence at hearing, or something written in claim form, ) is then misunderstood misrecorded etc and the tribunal then refer to something different. If you have repeatedly said something and the tribunal rely on a different 'fact' which is not borne out by any evidence it will be an error of law!
Re-read all the descriptor tests. Majority of days, and Reg 4 are often misquoted.
Equally, each descriptor'
eg descriptor 1 requires someone to be able to prepare and cook a simple meal for one person using fresh ingredients. If the tribunal say you can use a microwave to re-heat food hence no points they have misapplied the law. Was the questioning oppressive? Was the tribunal impolite,?
Were you allowed a break, particularly if you becsne upset? Dud they allow time to answer? Did you feel like that they had a train to catch in half an hour and therefore wanted to get on with things? Did they explain about your ' lack of credibility'- did they ask questions about this? Did they accept some of what you said and not other bits? Did they explain properly how they reached the conclusion? If the tribunal was brusque, impolite or even hostile then this indicates you were not given a fair trial ie error of law.
If the tribunal were eg hostile etc from the outset, it is entirely likely that they would not find you credible! A failure to properly explain their findings (whether you agree or not ) is an error of law.
The messing around with the timing of the hearing is another indication that you were not in the right headspace- perhaps not enough of its own but this could add to other factors. Discrepancies in evidence and obvious misapplication of law etc are errors of law that are easy to prove. Concentrate on these (provable things) and I suspect you will find at least one matetial error of law. (Something that if done correctly would have given more points etc that would result in an award or higher award.)
As per a previous post take out the emotion (yes difficult!) and go for it!!!
I hope this helps.
Ps Please don't give up! LL26

Hi Coruro

Thank you for taking the time to update us. The information will certainly be helpful to others. I'm so glad that you appealed the errors in law and that they found in your favour on two counts.

I'm sorry to hear of your recent breakdown and of an additional diagnosis. I am not surprised that you don't feel up to another hearing. You have to protect yourself, and after your last experience, I understand why you would not want another. I really hope that you get the positive outcome that you need.

BIS