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Query on the Planning and following Journey
- Magsikins
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4 years 7 months ago #251347 by Magsikins
Query on the Planning and following Journey was created by Magsikins
Hello
I'm a newbie in the Benefits Jungle and would be grateful for any advice as to my recent award. Amongst some other health conditions, I suffer from severe arthritis in my knees and back and can have problems with the care side of things together with getting around indoors and walking due to pain and my knees can give way and I can stumble/fall even though I try and use my NHS Crutches (because I have severe Carpal Tunnel in both wrists I suffer with problems with pain/numbness and grip and so cant always rely on being able to hold/grip the crutches for support) so I can't go anywhere on my own. I applied for both care and mobility in my PIP application and received my 'brown envelope last week and have been awarded the standard rate for care and 4 points for the 'Planning and Following a Journey' but although I ticked the box on the PIP formstating that I wasn't able move more than 20 metres the Decision Maker, in his wisdom has that in his opinion he feels I can walk at least 50 metres but no more than 200 metres. Bearing in mind they give an example that 50 metres is equivalent to 5 double decker buses end to end, he obviously thinks (even though I stated in my PIP form, and to the Health Professional during my telephone assessment, that I can't walk very far and even have to hold onto furniture indoors for support) that I can walk a total distance of 20 double decker buses?? I sent in my prescription list of some 9 medications that I have to take every day, one being Co-codamol 30/500mg 2 x 4 times a day for my Arthritis pain (which I've been told by my GP is strong enough to become addictive), but he actually states that I am not prescribed any 'strong' pain relief!!
So in view of everything, I've decided to appeal by way of a Mandatory Consideration Notice and am at present waiting for a copy of my Telephone Assessor's Report which I was told could take up to 7+ working days to arrive, but one query that I've got is regards the Planning and Following a Journey section, in which I was given 4 points, when i filled in my form i said that I would have trouble following a Journey because I can no longer drive or get to or use public trasport because of my legs/hands and my Telephone Assessor put the question to me asking "Was I able to plan a route in my head, say to my Doctors Surgery that is just 10 minutes car journey away, even if I couldnt physically get there under my own steam, to which I said yes . I've seen a statement online referring to this which states 'A person should only be considered able to follow a journey familar or otherwise if they would be capable of using public transport - the assessment of which should focus on ability rather than choice' which then suggests a point score of 10, so should I have been awarded a 10 instead of a 4 from a a section headed 'needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid ovewhelming psychological distess to the claimaint.' I'd be grateful if anyone could throw any light on this for me.
I'm a newbie in the Benefits Jungle and would be grateful for any advice as to my recent award. Amongst some other health conditions, I suffer from severe arthritis in my knees and back and can have problems with the care side of things together with getting around indoors and walking due to pain and my knees can give way and I can stumble/fall even though I try and use my NHS Crutches (because I have severe Carpal Tunnel in both wrists I suffer with problems with pain/numbness and grip and so cant always rely on being able to hold/grip the crutches for support) so I can't go anywhere on my own. I applied for both care and mobility in my PIP application and received my 'brown envelope last week and have been awarded the standard rate for care and 4 points for the 'Planning and Following a Journey' but although I ticked the box on the PIP formstating that I wasn't able move more than 20 metres the Decision Maker, in his wisdom has that in his opinion he feels I can walk at least 50 metres but no more than 200 metres. Bearing in mind they give an example that 50 metres is equivalent to 5 double decker buses end to end, he obviously thinks (even though I stated in my PIP form, and to the Health Professional during my telephone assessment, that I can't walk very far and even have to hold onto furniture indoors for support) that I can walk a total distance of 20 double decker buses?? I sent in my prescription list of some 9 medications that I have to take every day, one being Co-codamol 30/500mg 2 x 4 times a day for my Arthritis pain (which I've been told by my GP is strong enough to become addictive), but he actually states that I am not prescribed any 'strong' pain relief!!
So in view of everything, I've decided to appeal by way of a Mandatory Consideration Notice and am at present waiting for a copy of my Telephone Assessor's Report which I was told could take up to 7+ working days to arrive, but one query that I've got is regards the Planning and Following a Journey section, in which I was given 4 points, when i filled in my form i said that I would have trouble following a Journey because I can no longer drive or get to or use public trasport because of my legs/hands and my Telephone Assessor put the question to me asking "Was I able to plan a route in my head, say to my Doctors Surgery that is just 10 minutes car journey away, even if I couldnt physically get there under my own steam, to which I said yes . I've seen a statement online referring to this which states 'A person should only be considered able to follow a journey familar or otherwise if they would be capable of using public transport - the assessment of which should focus on ability rather than choice' which then suggests a point score of 10, so should I have been awarded a 10 instead of a 4 from a a section headed 'needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid ovewhelming psychological distess to the claimaint.' I'd be grateful if anyone could throw any light on this for me.
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- Gordon
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4 years 7 months ago #251359 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic Query on the Planning and following Journey
Mags
Welcome to the forum, you might want to have a look at the following FAQ which explains where everything is
Welcome to Benefits and Work
Forgive me but I am a little confused over the points you have scored for Mobility, you say you have scored four points for Going Out but also that you were assessed as
" Can stand and then move more than 50 metres but no more than 200 metres, either aided or
unaided."
This would also give you four points, totalling eight points and a Standard award. Did the Decision not award you points for this?
The points you have scored for Going Out are for
"1b. Needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant."
The question you mention is in regard to your planning a route.
The Going Out activity looks at three things.
Planning a route - this is primarily a cognitive or sensory (e.g. blindness) activity. You are being asked about the problems you would have with working out how to get from one place to another, you do not need to be able to follow the route that you are planning.
Undertaking a Journey - this is to do with mental health issues such as agoraphobia and social anxiety and is concerned with you leaving the house to go somewhere, they will be interested in the things that stop you doing this. You need to show that you would suffer "overwhelming psychological distress" to meet the criteria.
Following a route - This activity about the problems you would have navigating a route. So are there problems; cognitive, sensory or mental health issues that would prevent you from doing this? This is different from undertaking a journey, in fact, if you cannot undertake a journey then you will not score points for following one and vice versa.
It does not consider any physical problems that may prevent you from following a route.
Things to think about for your MR in regard the Moving Around activity.
You are not required to walk pain free but any pain that restricts the distance that you can walk should be taken into account.
Specifically for the Moving Around activity, if you are able to walk but you are in severe pain when doing so, then you can argue that your walking is not to a necessary standard and should be disregarded.
The legal test requires you to stand and then move (walk), so if you have problems getting up then you should document these as well.
If you walk slowly then it must take you at least twice the time to cover the distance as a healthy person would, this could be down to the speed of your walking but could also be the result of having to stop.
You must be able to repeat the distance, so if you could walk it once but not then be able to walk it again within a reasonable timescale then you should be classed as unable to repeat the activity.
I'm afraid I can't tell you how to show your walking is more restricted but things you need to think about is what you can't do, for example what can you walk in your house, how far is the toilet from where you normally sit, things that will count against you are any trips that you make outside, so for example, how do you do your shopping?
You must be able to walk the distance you can, reliably and on the majority of days, both these terms are defined in the PIP Claim guide
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants/pip
So you need to explain what you can, how you are limited and why.
Gordon
Welcome to the forum, you might want to have a look at the following FAQ which explains where everything is
Welcome to Benefits and Work
Forgive me but I am a little confused over the points you have scored for Mobility, you say you have scored four points for Going Out but also that you were assessed as
" Can stand and then move more than 50 metres but no more than 200 metres, either aided or
unaided."
This would also give you four points, totalling eight points and a Standard award. Did the Decision not award you points for this?
The points you have scored for Going Out are for
"1b. Needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant."
The question you mention is in regard to your planning a route.
The Going Out activity looks at three things.
Planning a route - this is primarily a cognitive or sensory (e.g. blindness) activity. You are being asked about the problems you would have with working out how to get from one place to another, you do not need to be able to follow the route that you are planning.
Undertaking a Journey - this is to do with mental health issues such as agoraphobia and social anxiety and is concerned with you leaving the house to go somewhere, they will be interested in the things that stop you doing this. You need to show that you would suffer "overwhelming psychological distress" to meet the criteria.
Following a route - This activity about the problems you would have navigating a route. So are there problems; cognitive, sensory or mental health issues that would prevent you from doing this? This is different from undertaking a journey, in fact, if you cannot undertake a journey then you will not score points for following one and vice versa.
It does not consider any physical problems that may prevent you from following a route.
Things to think about for your MR in regard the Moving Around activity.
You are not required to walk pain free but any pain that restricts the distance that you can walk should be taken into account.
Specifically for the Moving Around activity, if you are able to walk but you are in severe pain when doing so, then you can argue that your walking is not to a necessary standard and should be disregarded.
The legal test requires you to stand and then move (walk), so if you have problems getting up then you should document these as well.
If you walk slowly then it must take you at least twice the time to cover the distance as a healthy person would, this could be down to the speed of your walking but could also be the result of having to stop.
You must be able to repeat the distance, so if you could walk it once but not then be able to walk it again within a reasonable timescale then you should be classed as unable to repeat the activity.
I'm afraid I can't tell you how to show your walking is more restricted but things you need to think about is what you can't do, for example what can you walk in your house, how far is the toilet from where you normally sit, things that will count against you are any trips that you make outside, so for example, how do you do your shopping?
You must be able to walk the distance you can, reliably and on the majority of days, both these terms are defined in the PIP Claim guide
www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/help-for-claimants/pip
So you need to explain what you can, how you are limited and why.
Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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- Kevsue19
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4 years 7 months ago #251368 by Kevsue19
Replied by Kevsue19 on topic Query on the Planning and following Journey
Mags your challenges with mobility sound very much like mine (sadly) I have been through a few assessments, the last one was a telephone assessment. Knowing what they look for in the face to face I tried to replicate that by having evidence I could share- I measured 20 meters in our garden and timed my husband walking it, then timed myself (and timed my pause too!) I then shared this on the call . I noticed on the last assessor report (pre covid) from my face to face that the assessor actually watched me and must have timed me over a pre measure distanced. She even timed how long I sat down half way back to the car!
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