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PIP refusal because 'low dose meds'/no support
- TashaR
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3 years 4 months ago #265039 by TashaR
PIP refusal because 'low dose meds'/no support was created by TashaR
Any ideas? One of the people I care for has just had PIP refused on the grounds that they do not 'take the maximum dose of pain relief and only take a moderate dose antidepressant'. Plus, although they have been referred to a local mental health service by their GP these services (especially where interpreters are needed) are not yet up and running again. The HP has stated that the claimant 'is not in receipt of specialist support for MH. I am currently working on an MR for them so if anyone has any good arguments that can be used, that would be wonderful...thanks
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- Catherine
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3 years 4 months ago #265041 by Catherine
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Catherine on topic PIP refusal because 'low dose meds'/no support
Hello Tasha,
First of all, well done for stepping up and helping this person!
Ideas in a random order…
Ask the person you are supporting to complete a PIP diary, this can be submitted as evidence with your MR request and members report that they have carried weight with the decision maker. PIP resources Scroll down a little way to PIP DIARIES heading.
You could also complete one detailing the support you have provided, and possibly that given by other people too. Remember to include not just what you have done, but what would have happened, or not happened, if you had not given that support. You say that the person is 'one of the people that you care for'. What are their care needs? Do they have a care plan? All these things help in painting the fuller picture.
Point out in no uncertain terms that by making a referral to the local mental health services the GP has indicated that he/she believes there is evidence of a need for specialist support. The fact that due to covid the MHS are not currently seeing new patients is not an indication that support is not needed.
Have you googled the medications the person is on? Does the nhs or nice site agree with the assessor said? Have you asked the person you are supporting about their level of medication – is it controlling their pain / depression? If not, point this out. Is there a reason why they have not been given something stronger? If so, say so. (At the start of this year I prepared a MR for someone who was in terrible pain, but only taking fairly mild painkillers. The reason was their other conditions meant that it was not safe for them to take anything stronger. We won the MR.)
Above all, go through the PA4 form and see what you simply don’t agree with. And then say so clearly in your MR. If the assessor says that on the balance of probability the person can prepare and cook and their own food, and you know for a fact that they cannot, say so, and explain why the assessor is wrong. Keep in mind the descriptors for each activity so you know which points it is important to highlight.
And… read our MR guides! PIP resources . Scroll down to PIP APPEALS.
I hope this helps, and hopefully our members will come back with other tips!
Catherine
First of all, well done for stepping up and helping this person!
Ideas in a random order…
Ask the person you are supporting to complete a PIP diary, this can be submitted as evidence with your MR request and members report that they have carried weight with the decision maker. PIP resources Scroll down a little way to PIP DIARIES heading.
You could also complete one detailing the support you have provided, and possibly that given by other people too. Remember to include not just what you have done, but what would have happened, or not happened, if you had not given that support. You say that the person is 'one of the people that you care for'. What are their care needs? Do they have a care plan? All these things help in painting the fuller picture.
Point out in no uncertain terms that by making a referral to the local mental health services the GP has indicated that he/she believes there is evidence of a need for specialist support. The fact that due to covid the MHS are not currently seeing new patients is not an indication that support is not needed.
Have you googled the medications the person is on? Does the nhs or nice site agree with the assessor said? Have you asked the person you are supporting about their level of medication – is it controlling their pain / depression? If not, point this out. Is there a reason why they have not been given something stronger? If so, say so. (At the start of this year I prepared a MR for someone who was in terrible pain, but only taking fairly mild painkillers. The reason was their other conditions meant that it was not safe for them to take anything stronger. We won the MR.)
Above all, go through the PA4 form and see what you simply don’t agree with. And then say so clearly in your MR. If the assessor says that on the balance of probability the person can prepare and cook and their own food, and you know for a fact that they cannot, say so, and explain why the assessor is wrong. Keep in mind the descriptors for each activity so you know which points it is important to highlight.
And… read our MR guides! PIP resources . Scroll down to PIP APPEALS.
I hope this helps, and hopefully our members will come back with other tips!
Catherine
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: TashaR, organic
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- phrank
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3 years 4 months ago #265050 by phrank
Replied by phrank on topic PIP refusal because 'low dose meds'/no support
Hi Tasha and Catherine,
If the assessor does say 'on the balance of probabilty they can blah blah etc etc, I would challenge the phrase itself as being totally meaningless.
I had this (in my opinion) stupid phrase applied to a couple of the descriptors in my recent review, luckily they were in my favour.
This phrase is the perfect get out clause for a mathematician or a scientist who is trying to explain a theory that they don't know the solution to.
But it certainly is not a phrase a health care professional really ought to use unless they have special mystical powers.
Kind regards,
Phrank
If the assessor does say 'on the balance of probabilty they can blah blah etc etc, I would challenge the phrase itself as being totally meaningless.
I had this (in my opinion) stupid phrase applied to a couple of the descriptors in my recent review, luckily they were in my favour.
This phrase is the perfect get out clause for a mathematician or a scientist who is trying to explain a theory that they don't know the solution to.
But it certainly is not a phrase a health care professional really ought to use unless they have special mystical powers.
Kind regards,
Phrank
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- LL26
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3 years 4 months ago #265052 by LL26
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Replied by LL26 on topic PIP refusal because 'low dose meds'/no support
Hi Phrank,
DWP and or assessors often refer to the 'balance of probabilities' - this is actually a legal term referring to what is called the standard of proof. In Criminal Courts there is a very high standard which is 'beyond reasonable doubt', however in Civil Courts which includes tribunals and most benefits claims is 'balance of probabilities'. This means 'more likely than not' but is often cited as being simply over 50%.
A new benefit claimant has to show or prove that eg for PIP it is more likely than not he has limited function such that he scores at least 8 points for Dailly Living and or Mobility descriptors.
Phrank, you say that your award letter confirmed that on the balance of probs. X Descriptor applied, which actually is legal speak for accepting your claim/ renewal.
I don't think they use this phrase when they deny points, as it wouldn't make sense.
I hope this helps explain.
LL26
DWP and or assessors often refer to the 'balance of probabilities' - this is actually a legal term referring to what is called the standard of proof. In Criminal Courts there is a very high standard which is 'beyond reasonable doubt', however in Civil Courts which includes tribunals and most benefits claims is 'balance of probabilities'. This means 'more likely than not' but is often cited as being simply over 50%.
A new benefit claimant has to show or prove that eg for PIP it is more likely than not he has limited function such that he scores at least 8 points for Dailly Living and or Mobility descriptors.
Phrank, you say that your award letter confirmed that on the balance of probs. X Descriptor applied, which actually is legal speak for accepting your claim/ renewal.
I don't think they use this phrase when they deny points, as it wouldn't make sense.
I hope this helps explain.
LL26
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- phrank
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3 years 4 months ago #265053 by phrank
Replied by phrank on topic PIP refusal because 'low dose meds'/no support
Hi LL26,
Thanks tor your reply. Well, that clears things up a lot.
Sorry, it's just me flying off the handle getting upset thinking this could be used in a negative way.
It seems I've misunderstood the way the phrase is used and apologise for confusing issues.
Regards,
Phrank.
Thanks tor your reply. Well, that clears things up a lot.
Sorry, it's just me flying off the handle getting upset thinking this could be used in a negative way.
It seems I've misunderstood the way the phrase is used and apologise for confusing issues.
Regards,
Phrank.
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- Gary
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3 years 4 months ago #265056 by Gary
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Replied by Gary on topic PIP refusal because 'low dose meds'/no support
Hi phrank
I enjoy it when you fly off the handle ... it makes an interesting read
Gary
I enjoy it when you fly off the handle ... it makes an interesting read

Gary
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