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2 years 11 months ago #268604 by Paulie
Nothing new here ! was created by Paulie
I've been declined PIP. Only 2 points "scored"The rationale given in DWP response does not entirely reflect what I told the nurse during assessment phone
call. I could not record it. I need to have mand reconsideration done. If and when that declines, I need to go to tribunal. I need a
transcript of the call with nurse. Do the DWP have to supply that or do I have to get on to mobile phone company for recording.
Any advice on that and how to go about mandatory recon procedure. It's all so complex to me. Thanks.
call. I could not record it. I need to have mand reconsideration done. If and when that declines, I need to go to tribunal. I need a
transcript of the call with nurse. Do the DWP have to supply that or do I have to get on to mobile phone company for recording.
Any advice on that and how to go about mandatory recon procedure. It's all so complex to me. Thanks.
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2 years 11 months ago #268633 by BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by BIS on topic Nothing new here !
Hi Paulie
Have you got a copy of the PA4 (the assessment report) which details what happened during the assessment? This will be key to you writing your mandatory reconsideration because you will know what points you are fighting against. If you already have it go through it line by line, where you disagree with the assessor's conclusions.
Your primary task is to show that you meet the criteria, there are many reasons you may have failed, you need to address each of these but don't get bogged down in criticising the assessment report unless you can clearly show that it is incorrect, it is a lot easier to argue the facts of the situation;
"the assessor recorded that I walked 50m, I did but they have failed to document that I had to stop every 10m for a rest due to breathlessness"
than their opinions
"based on my observations of the claimant walking I believe that they can reliably walk more than 200m.
When you have a better idea of the issues with your claim, come back to the forum and we will do our best to help.
You can also look at the Guide to PIP Appeals which has the information about Mandatory Reconsiderations in it benefitsandwork.co.uk/guides-for-claimants/pip
With regard to the telephone recording - if you did not put in the request for one before the assessment - then one will not have been done. (I know you put this in another post). You will not be able to get a recording/transcript from your mobile phone provider.
BIS
Have you got a copy of the PA4 (the assessment report) which details what happened during the assessment? This will be key to you writing your mandatory reconsideration because you will know what points you are fighting against. If you already have it go through it line by line, where you disagree with the assessor's conclusions.
Your primary task is to show that you meet the criteria, there are many reasons you may have failed, you need to address each of these but don't get bogged down in criticising the assessment report unless you can clearly show that it is incorrect, it is a lot easier to argue the facts of the situation;
"the assessor recorded that I walked 50m, I did but they have failed to document that I had to stop every 10m for a rest due to breathlessness"
than their opinions
"based on my observations of the claimant walking I believe that they can reliably walk more than 200m.
When you have a better idea of the issues with your claim, come back to the forum and we will do our best to help.
You can also look at the Guide to PIP Appeals which has the information about Mandatory Reconsiderations in it benefitsandwork.co.uk/guides-for-claimants/pip
With regard to the telephone recording - if you did not put in the request for one before the assessment - then one will not have been done. (I know you put this in another post). You will not be able to get a recording/transcript from your mobile phone provider.
BIS
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2 years 11 months ago #268646 by Paulie
Replied by Paulie on topic Nothing new here !
I will, most likely come back with for further advice. This is the first time I have put in a PIP claim. I'm determined to
see it through and go to appeal if that's what it takes. Very grateful for your help.
see it through and go to appeal if that's what it takes. Very grateful for your help.
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2 years 11 months ago #268773 by Paulie
Replied by Paulie on topic Nothing new here !
I have received copy of E4. Had to take my time looking through it. Seems assessor has contradicted herself by having stated one thing in the overview at the start and the opposite in the rationale for awarding 0 points for one of the descriptors. The way I see it 2 points should have been awarded and was not. I will point it out to DWP for mand. recon.
purposes. If they still disagree on that one, I'll let the Tribunal decide (if it goes to one). Thanks again for your advice.
purposes. If they still disagree on that one, I'll let the Tribunal decide (if it goes to one). Thanks again for your advice.
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- LL26
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2 years 11 months ago #268782 by LL26
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Replied by LL26 on topic Nothing new here !
Hi Paulie,
My own experience, which seems to be echoed by members of B&W suggests that there are many contradictions in many Assessment Reports! As BIS said earlier, criticise the inaccuracies in the report on the facts, rather than opinions. Maybe get a piece of paper and note down all the errors. I suspect you can then group them together. the following are often complained about;
Cut and paste (same reasoning for all descriptors.)
Observations - eg 'did not sound distressed or out of breath' (which I think is code for wasn't wailing her head off, and wasn't actually gasping for air or choking! Or the worse one (spot the deliberate mistake) 'from observations could walk over 200m' - it was a phone call assessment!
There may be hostility/rudeness/not allowing to finish the answers.
Then there are just the 'misunderstandings' about the medical evidence or perhaps when the claimant says 'I never have a bath when on my own' which gets mistyped as 'I am able to take a bath on my own'.
I suspect that you will be able to have say 4 or 5 groups of issues. Put these down as bullet points, use the worst examples within each bullet point to illustrate.
I also suggest writing opening paragraph/s with a bit of background to your disability, eg if you had an accident, or briefly go through treatment etc. You can use this paragraph to explain how you are affected by the disability in general, maybe you have felt suicidal, perhaps you have lost your job, maybe you had to move back into parents house etc. You may wish to refer to medical reports.
Then criticise about the Assessment Report as discussed above.
Finally go through each descriptor - (use the Members Guides to help) - be brutally honest with yourself. (I'm sorry - but unfortunately negativity is part of the PIP process.)
So for example concerning dressing - consider the following questions -
can I dress myself, can I do it through out the day, what do I struggle with, does it take me a long time, (perhaps more relevant to other descriptors) do I feel safe doing this, if not why
not, am I in pain, or out of breath, have I ever left shoes or zips undone because I can't do them up? Also think about whether you use some really odd method, something/someone to help, or use an improvised gadget. (Odd method could show it takes too long, or isn't safe, improvised gadget could be an aid etc.)
Then consider whether this always happens - or what happens for the majority of time.
The same questions will apply by and large to all the other descriptors. By thinking about these sorts of questions, you will be able to determine whether you can/can't do the activity. Then you need to consider 4 important criteria - safety/reasonable time taken/acceptable standard/repeatedly - all 4 must apply - so to continue the example of dressing-
your self analysis is as follows
I can dress myself
I get pain when I lift my hands over my head for shirts
I struggle with buttons and find it really difficult to bend down for trousers/socks
It takes me much longer than my partner
5 days in the last week partner told me I had got my shirt on inside out, and it was misbuttoned
There are a number of things going on here -
pain could comprise not acceptable standard - inside out shirt/poorly buttoned shirt is probably not acceptable - this happened for the majority of days
socks - buttons - could use a button device/ sock puller (aid/appliance) =2pts 6b
need help with lower clothing = 2pts 6d
However, there is clearly a problem with upper body garments - (pain in arms and poorly buttoned shirts etc) - this carries 4 pts -6e
However, if the whole action of dressing takes too long (rather than say just tops or just trousers) and it is over twice as long as your non disabled partner then potentially you could argue 8 points under 6f (but the likelihood is, that even if this is true, you would probably need to have really substantial disabilities for DWP to consider this option, even though legally it does apply. so it would be exceptionally difficult to prove.)
Under Regulation 7 the correct descriptor, when more than one within a section applies, is the highest points score. - So yes, the example above might suggest 8 points is correct, and certainly could be argues, but otherwise upper body clothing problems carries more points than lower body or needing to use an aid/appliance.
So, go through each descriptor using the above analysis and you should be able to arrive at a points value for each descriptor. You may not be eligible for points on all. - If so say so. However, try and be consistent across the whole. If you have mobility difficulties, whilst you may be able to dress yourself you can say that eg 'I have limited mobility in my arms and legs, but for the majority of time I can manage this activity.'
Include any medical evidence (again in case DWP didn't read it the first time!) and a statement from a friend or relative who can comment on how you perform PIP activities.
I hope the above provides some more insight how you can write your MR letter.
Be yourself - use your own words, your own, brutally honest words.
Good luck.
Let us know how you get on.
LL26
My own experience, which seems to be echoed by members of B&W suggests that there are many contradictions in many Assessment Reports! As BIS said earlier, criticise the inaccuracies in the report on the facts, rather than opinions. Maybe get a piece of paper and note down all the errors. I suspect you can then group them together. the following are often complained about;
Cut and paste (same reasoning for all descriptors.)
Observations - eg 'did not sound distressed or out of breath' (which I think is code for wasn't wailing her head off, and wasn't actually gasping for air or choking! Or the worse one (spot the deliberate mistake) 'from observations could walk over 200m' - it was a phone call assessment!
There may be hostility/rudeness/not allowing to finish the answers.
Then there are just the 'misunderstandings' about the medical evidence or perhaps when the claimant says 'I never have a bath when on my own' which gets mistyped as 'I am able to take a bath on my own'.
I suspect that you will be able to have say 4 or 5 groups of issues. Put these down as bullet points, use the worst examples within each bullet point to illustrate.
I also suggest writing opening paragraph/s with a bit of background to your disability, eg if you had an accident, or briefly go through treatment etc. You can use this paragraph to explain how you are affected by the disability in general, maybe you have felt suicidal, perhaps you have lost your job, maybe you had to move back into parents house etc. You may wish to refer to medical reports.
Then criticise about the Assessment Report as discussed above.
Finally go through each descriptor - (use the Members Guides to help) - be brutally honest with yourself. (I'm sorry - but unfortunately negativity is part of the PIP process.)
So for example concerning dressing - consider the following questions -
can I dress myself, can I do it through out the day, what do I struggle with, does it take me a long time, (perhaps more relevant to other descriptors) do I feel safe doing this, if not why
not, am I in pain, or out of breath, have I ever left shoes or zips undone because I can't do them up? Also think about whether you use some really odd method, something/someone to help, or use an improvised gadget. (Odd method could show it takes too long, or isn't safe, improvised gadget could be an aid etc.)
Then consider whether this always happens - or what happens for the majority of time.
The same questions will apply by and large to all the other descriptors. By thinking about these sorts of questions, you will be able to determine whether you can/can't do the activity. Then you need to consider 4 important criteria - safety/reasonable time taken/acceptable standard/repeatedly - all 4 must apply - so to continue the example of dressing-
your self analysis is as follows
I can dress myself
I get pain when I lift my hands over my head for shirts
I struggle with buttons and find it really difficult to bend down for trousers/socks
It takes me much longer than my partner
5 days in the last week partner told me I had got my shirt on inside out, and it was misbuttoned
There are a number of things going on here -
pain could comprise not acceptable standard - inside out shirt/poorly buttoned shirt is probably not acceptable - this happened for the majority of days
socks - buttons - could use a button device/ sock puller (aid/appliance) =2pts 6b
need help with lower clothing = 2pts 6d
However, there is clearly a problem with upper body garments - (pain in arms and poorly buttoned shirts etc) - this carries 4 pts -6e
However, if the whole action of dressing takes too long (rather than say just tops or just trousers) and it is over twice as long as your non disabled partner then potentially you could argue 8 points under 6f (but the likelihood is, that even if this is true, you would probably need to have really substantial disabilities for DWP to consider this option, even though legally it does apply. so it would be exceptionally difficult to prove.)
Under Regulation 7 the correct descriptor, when more than one within a section applies, is the highest points score. - So yes, the example above might suggest 8 points is correct, and certainly could be argues, but otherwise upper body clothing problems carries more points than lower body or needing to use an aid/appliance.
So, go through each descriptor using the above analysis and you should be able to arrive at a points value for each descriptor. You may not be eligible for points on all. - If so say so. However, try and be consistent across the whole. If you have mobility difficulties, whilst you may be able to dress yourself you can say that eg 'I have limited mobility in my arms and legs, but for the majority of time I can manage this activity.'
Include any medical evidence (again in case DWP didn't read it the first time!) and a statement from a friend or relative who can comment on how you perform PIP activities.
I hope the above provides some more insight how you can write your MR letter.
Be yourself - use your own words, your own, brutally honest words.
Good luck.
Let us know how you get on.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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2 years 11 months ago #268808 by Paulie
Replied by Paulie on topic Nothing new here !
Your response is very insightful, LL26. I have read it and will re-read it. BIS and yourself have given great advice. I am new to PIP claim procedures and feel so grateful to have been given the opportunity to join this forum. It's been a real eye opener for me. Thanks again.
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