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PIP Tribunal Hearing via Telephone
- Gemma
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2 years 11 months ago #268827 by Gemma
PIP Tribunal Hearing via Telephone was created by Gemma
Just wondering if anyone can help.
I applied for PIP in January 2021. I was declined for both daily living and mobility. I did an MR and was given 10 points for mobility so was awarded standard mobility. I still disagreed and so appealed. It took 32 weeks for me to get a hearing booked.
Yesterday I had my tribunal hearing over the telephone. Present was me, my mum, the Judge, a Doctor and another lady.
The Doctor started off by asking questions about my illnesses and how they affect me. He then went on to discuss my ability to walk etc. I reiterated what I had put in my claim form and my MR and he said this was very helpful.
I was then asked further questions by the other lady (can't remember where she was from but it wasn't the DWP). She was very understanding, patient and just really lovely. I felt at ease with her and felt as though she actually listened to what I was saying and really understood how things affect me on a daily basis.
I was then asked just a few more questions by the Judge. I was taken aback by the judge and felt a little pressured and felt as if I was on trial for a murder case. I didn't feel at ease at all. She would ask me questions and then when I gave my answer she kept picking at my answer and I felt as if she was trying to trip me up or trick me. My mum also felt the same way.
The hearing lasted 50 minutes. The judge said I would get a decision within the next few days. I asked the judge how I would go about getting a recording of the hearing to which she explained and the hearing ended.
Today I have gone onto the website where you track your appeal and the hearing is still showing as 'booked' so I was unable to request a copy of the recording.
I telephoned the appeals phone number and spoke to a lovely man who said it may take a few days for the online system to update but that a decision had been made and sent out in the post. I asked if he could tell me what the decision was to which he replied unfortunately not, it is actually against the law to do so. He did however say new rules mean they can email you the decision straight away (used to be after 5 days apparently). He emailed my decision notice over and it arrived within minutes.
So my mobility has stayed the same (10 points) same descriptor etc.
My daily living has gone from 0 points to 9 points so I have been awarded standard daily living.
I am however confused. On the decision notice, it shows you what descriptors the tribunal believe you met and where the 9 points are coming from. Then there is a short statement that says why you are entitled. One of the descriptors that I believe I met has not even been mentioned on the decision notice yet the statement regarding my anxiety etc clearly shows that I should have met this particular descriptor.
So my question is, with this being a tribunal hearing is there any way you can question why a particular descriptor has not been factored in?
Thankyou
Gemma
I applied for PIP in January 2021. I was declined for both daily living and mobility. I did an MR and was given 10 points for mobility so was awarded standard mobility. I still disagreed and so appealed. It took 32 weeks for me to get a hearing booked.
Yesterday I had my tribunal hearing over the telephone. Present was me, my mum, the Judge, a Doctor and another lady.
The Doctor started off by asking questions about my illnesses and how they affect me. He then went on to discuss my ability to walk etc. I reiterated what I had put in my claim form and my MR and he said this was very helpful.
I was then asked further questions by the other lady (can't remember where she was from but it wasn't the DWP). She was very understanding, patient and just really lovely. I felt at ease with her and felt as though she actually listened to what I was saying and really understood how things affect me on a daily basis.
I was then asked just a few more questions by the Judge. I was taken aback by the judge and felt a little pressured and felt as if I was on trial for a murder case. I didn't feel at ease at all. She would ask me questions and then when I gave my answer she kept picking at my answer and I felt as if she was trying to trip me up or trick me. My mum also felt the same way.
The hearing lasted 50 minutes. The judge said I would get a decision within the next few days. I asked the judge how I would go about getting a recording of the hearing to which she explained and the hearing ended.
Today I have gone onto the website where you track your appeal and the hearing is still showing as 'booked' so I was unable to request a copy of the recording.
I telephoned the appeals phone number and spoke to a lovely man who said it may take a few days for the online system to update but that a decision had been made and sent out in the post. I asked if he could tell me what the decision was to which he replied unfortunately not, it is actually against the law to do so. He did however say new rules mean they can email you the decision straight away (used to be after 5 days apparently). He emailed my decision notice over and it arrived within minutes.
So my mobility has stayed the same (10 points) same descriptor etc.
My daily living has gone from 0 points to 9 points so I have been awarded standard daily living.
I am however confused. On the decision notice, it shows you what descriptors the tribunal believe you met and where the 9 points are coming from. Then there is a short statement that says why you are entitled. One of the descriptors that I believe I met has not even been mentioned on the decision notice yet the statement regarding my anxiety etc clearly shows that I should have met this particular descriptor.
So my question is, with this being a tribunal hearing is there any way you can question why a particular descriptor has not been factored in?
Thankyou
Gemma
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- Gary
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2 years 11 months ago #268855 by Gary
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gary on topic PIP Tribunal Hearing via Telephone
Hi Gemma
If you think that the original tribunal (First tier Tribunal) has given the wrong decision, then you will need to ask for the Statement of Reasons AND the Record of Proceedings. Please note you should ask for the Written Statement of Reasons - often abbreviated to WSOR. (The ROP may well comprise a cd recording if this was a phone conference hearing - if so you may need to transcribe what's said, or at least write down the crucial bits and a time.)
Compare the ROP/transcript with the WSOR. There may be glaring errors. Easy things to spot are discrepancies such as in ROP poor mobility is mentioned, and later in WSOR 'claimant confirmed he had no walking difficulty'. That would be a blatant example of where an error of law has occurred. Often the errors are less obvious to spot.
Looking very carefully at the descriptors and comparing this with the WSOR is a good idea. Sometimes the original Tribunal will award no points because they have applied the wrong test. An example of this would be where the tribunal say 'he can cook because he can reheat ready meals'. This would be wrong as the test is cooking a simple meal from fresh ingredients. If you can find at least once material error of law then you can appeal.
What you need to do, once you have the WSOR/ROP, and have found the error/s of law, then you will need to apply for the First Tier Decision to be set aside and/or leave to apply to the Upper Tribunal. The Regional Judge will do through your request, and he/she may be able to agree there has been an error of law. He will then send the case back to a different tribunal panel at first tier to rehear the case. If the Regional Judge is not sure, or perhaps this is a point of law that several people have been arguing, then the case might get referred straight away to the Upper Tribunal. Unfortunately this all takes time, but of course, if you subsequently win the appeal, money will get back dated to the claim or renewal date.
There are many law centres and CAB etc that can assist with appeals from the first tier tribunal, and an advisor would be able to help draft letters, and/or represent you during the appeal, this is often free of charge. Have a look at advicelocal.uk where there are details of advice centres. Hopefully there will be one near you.
There are strict time limits in which to apply for SOR + ROP and then to appeal to the Upper Tribunal.
I wish you luck, and hope that you can resolve any appeal.
Gary
If you think that the original tribunal (First tier Tribunal) has given the wrong decision, then you will need to ask for the Statement of Reasons AND the Record of Proceedings. Please note you should ask for the Written Statement of Reasons - often abbreviated to WSOR. (The ROP may well comprise a cd recording if this was a phone conference hearing - if so you may need to transcribe what's said, or at least write down the crucial bits and a time.)
Compare the ROP/transcript with the WSOR. There may be glaring errors. Easy things to spot are discrepancies such as in ROP poor mobility is mentioned, and later in WSOR 'claimant confirmed he had no walking difficulty'. That would be a blatant example of where an error of law has occurred. Often the errors are less obvious to spot.
Looking very carefully at the descriptors and comparing this with the WSOR is a good idea. Sometimes the original Tribunal will award no points because they have applied the wrong test. An example of this would be where the tribunal say 'he can cook because he can reheat ready meals'. This would be wrong as the test is cooking a simple meal from fresh ingredients. If you can find at least once material error of law then you can appeal.
What you need to do, once you have the WSOR/ROP, and have found the error/s of law, then you will need to apply for the First Tier Decision to be set aside and/or leave to apply to the Upper Tribunal. The Regional Judge will do through your request, and he/she may be able to agree there has been an error of law. He will then send the case back to a different tribunal panel at first tier to rehear the case. If the Regional Judge is not sure, or perhaps this is a point of law that several people have been arguing, then the case might get referred straight away to the Upper Tribunal. Unfortunately this all takes time, but of course, if you subsequently win the appeal, money will get back dated to the claim or renewal date.
There are many law centres and CAB etc that can assist with appeals from the first tier tribunal, and an advisor would be able to help draft letters, and/or represent you during the appeal, this is often free of charge. Have a look at advicelocal.uk where there are details of advice centres. Hopefully there will be one near you.
There are strict time limits in which to apply for SOR + ROP and then to appeal to the Upper Tribunal.
I wish you luck, and hope that you can resolve any appeal.
Gary
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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- LL26
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2 years 11 months ago #268859 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic PIP Tribunal Hearing via Telephone
Hi Gemma,
Just to put some things in context. The lady who asked sensitive questions was probably the disability member; often a manager at a care home or maybe someone who is themselves a carer.
Back to your decision. You can write in to the Tribunal (email is ok, but you do need to write) and ask for the Written Statement of Reasons. The decision notices are always just a summary of the outcome of the hearing. The WSOR will be the long version of how the tribunal has viewed the evidence, and how they have used the evidence to arrive at their decision. They should also explain the legal basis for the decision. It often takes a month or more to get the WSOR.
Once this arrives you can consider a further appeal. However, you will need to find an error of law.
There are several things that might give rise to an error of law.
Obvious things could be that the tribunal say there is eg no evidence of any difficulties with eating or drinking, but you actually said you constantly drop food and always use adapted cutlery. If the tribunal have ignored vital evidence this is an error of law.
Other things might be applying the wrong legal test. Or, not allowing a witness to speak. There are all sorts of things that could comprise an error of law. If the error is a material one, which means that it could make a difference to your points score, then you can appeal. You would first need to write to the tribunal within a month of the tribunal sending out the WSOR. You need to ask that the decision from the First Tier Tribunal is set aside and/or request leave to appeal to the Upper Tribunal and explain why.
When looking at the WSOR consider inconsistencies, what was said, what wasn't, can you understand the reasoning, does it make sense, does the tribunal explain the legal test correctly (The members guides could help here.)
Appealing to the Upper Tribunal can be done alone, but it is complicated and difficult. You may wish to seek specialist benefits advice if you wish to appeal.
If you do appeal, as with all appeals, the whole award might be reopened, and you may lose your existing award. It is unlikely, but nevertheless a possibility.
I hope this helps.
LL26
Just to put some things in context. The lady who asked sensitive questions was probably the disability member; often a manager at a care home or maybe someone who is themselves a carer.
Back to your decision. You can write in to the Tribunal (email is ok, but you do need to write) and ask for the Written Statement of Reasons. The decision notices are always just a summary of the outcome of the hearing. The WSOR will be the long version of how the tribunal has viewed the evidence, and how they have used the evidence to arrive at their decision. They should also explain the legal basis for the decision. It often takes a month or more to get the WSOR.
Once this arrives you can consider a further appeal. However, you will need to find an error of law.
There are several things that might give rise to an error of law.
Obvious things could be that the tribunal say there is eg no evidence of any difficulties with eating or drinking, but you actually said you constantly drop food and always use adapted cutlery. If the tribunal have ignored vital evidence this is an error of law.
Other things might be applying the wrong legal test. Or, not allowing a witness to speak. There are all sorts of things that could comprise an error of law. If the error is a material one, which means that it could make a difference to your points score, then you can appeal. You would first need to write to the tribunal within a month of the tribunal sending out the WSOR. You need to ask that the decision from the First Tier Tribunal is set aside and/or request leave to appeal to the Upper Tribunal and explain why.
When looking at the WSOR consider inconsistencies, what was said, what wasn't, can you understand the reasoning, does it make sense, does the tribunal explain the legal test correctly (The members guides could help here.)
Appealing to the Upper Tribunal can be done alone, but it is complicated and difficult. You may wish to seek specialist benefits advice if you wish to appeal.
If you do appeal, as with all appeals, the whole award might be reopened, and you may lose your existing award. It is unlikely, but nevertheless a possibility.
I hope this helps.
LL26
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