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PIP "tentative" award and Mandatory Reconsideration
- Andrew
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2 years 10 months ago #269042 by Andrew
PIP "tentative" award and Mandatory Reconsideration was created by Andrew
Good Morning all,
First of all, I would like to say a huge thank you for the help I`ve received from Benefitsandwork in the form of direct responses to my queries in the forum, responses / questions I`ve read from other members and last, but definitely not least, the excellent publications provided.
I have a number of physical challenges, the main one being mobility due to lumbar and cervical spondylosis; this challenge was the foundation of my PIP claim.
Today I`ve received my PA3 assessment form, which was produced following a paper-based assessment. To say I was "bricking" a face-to-face or a telephone assessment would be an understatement; how relieved was I when I got my "We`ve received your assessment" text
I don`t agree with the result of one of the Daily Living questions (washing between shoulder and waist) but, according to the PA3, I`ve still achieved enough points to gain the Enhanced Daily Living component - so I`m not going to push that. Again - thank you so much for your help.
I`ve received only 4 points for mobility; it is this area I intend to submit a Mandatory Reconsideration. The details being (and as completed in the PIP application):
I live 85.5m (measured by Google Maps and submitted as such) from my back door to a corner shop. When I have to go (and only in extreme circumstances) I have to go through a garden gate (10.5m from my back door) and a drive gate (15m from my garden gate). Before I get to the garden gate my back is killing me and by the time I get to the drive gate, the pain is unbearable. I regularly have to stop and rest on the way there and on the way back. When I do get back, a period of lying down has to take place.
On the very, very rare days that I want to try and live a life of normality by going to the local supermarket, I have to use a trolley as a "zimmer" with very frequent rest stops. This bit was acknowledged by the assessor with "he is no longer able to walk around a supermarket and has his food delivered to his house" (which I do, every Friday).
The assessor has "kindly awarded" me 4 points under 12b in that the assessor reported that because I can walk to the shop which is "roughly" (assessors word) 200 metres round trip, then I should only receive a 4.
85.5m * 2 = 171m which, even for someone without a spinal condition, is considerably less than 200m.
I know the DWP could up or down the points, so all I`m going to wait until I get the award notification and then take it from there.
I`ve downloaded "pip-clients-mandatory-reconsiderations-sept-21" and "pip-appeal-submissions-oct-21" which I will go through over the coming days.
However, in the meantime and assuming the award will be granted as per the assessment, any additional advice on how to approach this would be very welcome. I may not need the advice, but better to prepare ahead.
Thank you and regards,
Andy
First of all, I would like to say a huge thank you for the help I`ve received from Benefitsandwork in the form of direct responses to my queries in the forum, responses / questions I`ve read from other members and last, but definitely not least, the excellent publications provided.
I have a number of physical challenges, the main one being mobility due to lumbar and cervical spondylosis; this challenge was the foundation of my PIP claim.
Today I`ve received my PA3 assessment form, which was produced following a paper-based assessment. To say I was "bricking" a face-to-face or a telephone assessment would be an understatement; how relieved was I when I got my "We`ve received your assessment" text
I don`t agree with the result of one of the Daily Living questions (washing between shoulder and waist) but, according to the PA3, I`ve still achieved enough points to gain the Enhanced Daily Living component - so I`m not going to push that. Again - thank you so much for your help.
I`ve received only 4 points for mobility; it is this area I intend to submit a Mandatory Reconsideration. The details being (and as completed in the PIP application):
I live 85.5m (measured by Google Maps and submitted as such) from my back door to a corner shop. When I have to go (and only in extreme circumstances) I have to go through a garden gate (10.5m from my back door) and a drive gate (15m from my garden gate). Before I get to the garden gate my back is killing me and by the time I get to the drive gate, the pain is unbearable. I regularly have to stop and rest on the way there and on the way back. When I do get back, a period of lying down has to take place.
On the very, very rare days that I want to try and live a life of normality by going to the local supermarket, I have to use a trolley as a "zimmer" with very frequent rest stops. This bit was acknowledged by the assessor with "he is no longer able to walk around a supermarket and has his food delivered to his house" (which I do, every Friday).
The assessor has "kindly awarded" me 4 points under 12b in that the assessor reported that because I can walk to the shop which is "roughly" (assessors word) 200 metres round trip, then I should only receive a 4.
85.5m * 2 = 171m which, even for someone without a spinal condition, is considerably less than 200m.
I know the DWP could up or down the points, so all I`m going to wait until I get the award notification and then take it from there.
I`ve downloaded "pip-clients-mandatory-reconsiderations-sept-21" and "pip-appeal-submissions-oct-21" which I will go through over the coming days.
However, in the meantime and assuming the award will be granted as per the assessment, any additional advice on how to approach this would be very welcome. I may not need the advice, but better to prepare ahead.
Thank you and regards,
Andy
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- BIS
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2 years 9 months ago #269052 by BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by BIS on topic PIP "tentative" award and Mandatory Reconsideration
Hi Andy
Thank you for your kind words. I'm so glad to hear that you have found the forum useful.
With regards to your mobility issues. I understand what you are saying with regard to the distances - 171.m is considerably less than 200m, but that's not the point you want to be arguing, because you would still only be awarded 4 points. You have talked about the pain and discomfort and having to stop and the time that is taken up to do this. Go back to page 88 of the manual and make sure you have covered every aspect of safety and reliability. There is good advice there on how you should make your argument. You could argue that because you have to stop for so long because of the pain, it is not the same period of walking and therefore you actually can't walk 200m. benefitsandwork.co.uk/guides-for-claimants/pip
BIS
Thank you for your kind words. I'm so glad to hear that you have found the forum useful.
With regards to your mobility issues. I understand what you are saying with regard to the distances - 171.m is considerably less than 200m, but that's not the point you want to be arguing, because you would still only be awarded 4 points. You have talked about the pain and discomfort and having to stop and the time that is taken up to do this. Go back to page 88 of the manual and make sure you have covered every aspect of safety and reliability. There is good advice there on how you should make your argument. You could argue that because you have to stop for so long because of the pain, it is not the same period of walking and therefore you actually can't walk 200m. benefitsandwork.co.uk/guides-for-claimants/pip
BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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- Andrew
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2 years 9 months ago #269055 by Andrew
Replied by Andrew on topic PIP "tentative" award and Mandatory Reconsideration
Hi BIS,
Thank you very much; I`ll follow your guidance and take it from there.
Regards,
Andy
Thank you very much; I`ll follow your guidance and take it from there.
Regards,
Andy
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- LL26
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2 years 9 months ago #269061 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic PIP "tentative" award and Mandatory Reconsideration
Hi Andrew
To add to BIS' excellent reply. The PIP walking test is not about the absolute maximum you can walk. You may seen the advert for duracell batteries where the toy rabbit is wound up and goes on forever and ever until it finally runs out of power - this is not how PIP works.
Any walking done with 'severe discomfort' has to be discounted. So, theoretically you could walk a mile or two if you clenched your teeth and and kept grinding on through the pain and still get points for mobility.
You use the words
"Before I get to the garden gate my back is killing me and by the time I get to the drive gate, the pain is unbearable. I regularly have to stop and rest on the way there and on the way back."
If your back is killing you then this suggests more than severe discomfort, which is considerably less than what you appear to describe, and is definitely less than the unbearable level you describe moments later. You garden gate and drive way are a maximum of 15 m from your door. This is clearly well within the 1-20m to provide 12 points under 2e. (You have unfortunately fallen into the duracell trap of describing your maximum walk!)
BIS is right about whether or not the entire 'duracell 'walk is actually one long walk or a series of smaller walks.
Under reg 4(2)A all PIP activities have to be done reliably ie safely, repeatedly, to an acceptable standard and within a reasonable time. Whether the walk to the shop is one long walk or a series of short walks. (It will depend on the length of stops.) However whether 1 or more walks, you may wish to consider the time taken. Reasonable time is no more than twice the time for a non disabled person.
Severe discomfort isn't just about pain, it can comprise breathlessness, dizziness etc as well as pain. The pain doesn't even have to be leg or back pain.
Additionally, think about the way you walk. Do you have falls or stumbles? Remember a stumble is only a footstep away from a fall! Do you have an impaired gait, such a looking like a drunken man, or dragging your foot. Poor walking may also be indicative of not walking to an acceptable standard. Stumbles etc will show you may not be safe when walking.
Finally, PIP is awarded on the basis of what happens for the majority of time. Thus you are having a better day, or just need to go to the shop, and go for a walk, this doesn't exclude the possibility of points, even if you can go well over 200m and have no discomfort or safety issues etc.
The very occasional walk you describe to the shop clearly isn't the majority pattern for 'over 50% of days', and therefore also has to be discounted.
Lastly, since you are totally exhausted after this occasional walk, it is doubtful whether you could fulfil the repeatability criteria. All activities have to done repeatedly as required across the day. Although for walking this might be somewhat a theoretical test, it would not be unreasonable for someone to go to the shop in the morning, realise that you had forgotten to get a birthday card, and then go back to the shop and onwards to the post box. You might then want to walk round to a friend's place later.
This is the sort of 'normal life' (that needs to be considered in accordance with caselaw) that anyone might wish to adopt, but of course requires more than one walk per day. Hence, if you can only do one very short walk, let alone more than one, you would also fail the repeatedly criteria. Note, all 4 criteria must be satisfied.
I hope that the above gives you a better insight into mobility awards, which can be added to the further information in the members guides.
Good luck.
Let us know how you get on.
LL26
To add to BIS' excellent reply. The PIP walking test is not about the absolute maximum you can walk. You may seen the advert for duracell batteries where the toy rabbit is wound up and goes on forever and ever until it finally runs out of power - this is not how PIP works.
Any walking done with 'severe discomfort' has to be discounted. So, theoretically you could walk a mile or two if you clenched your teeth and and kept grinding on through the pain and still get points for mobility.
You use the words
"Before I get to the garden gate my back is killing me and by the time I get to the drive gate, the pain is unbearable. I regularly have to stop and rest on the way there and on the way back."
If your back is killing you then this suggests more than severe discomfort, which is considerably less than what you appear to describe, and is definitely less than the unbearable level you describe moments later. You garden gate and drive way are a maximum of 15 m from your door. This is clearly well within the 1-20m to provide 12 points under 2e. (You have unfortunately fallen into the duracell trap of describing your maximum walk!)
BIS is right about whether or not the entire 'duracell 'walk is actually one long walk or a series of smaller walks.
Under reg 4(2)A all PIP activities have to be done reliably ie safely, repeatedly, to an acceptable standard and within a reasonable time. Whether the walk to the shop is one long walk or a series of short walks. (It will depend on the length of stops.) However whether 1 or more walks, you may wish to consider the time taken. Reasonable time is no more than twice the time for a non disabled person.
Severe discomfort isn't just about pain, it can comprise breathlessness, dizziness etc as well as pain. The pain doesn't even have to be leg or back pain.
Additionally, think about the way you walk. Do you have falls or stumbles? Remember a stumble is only a footstep away from a fall! Do you have an impaired gait, such a looking like a drunken man, or dragging your foot. Poor walking may also be indicative of not walking to an acceptable standard. Stumbles etc will show you may not be safe when walking.
Finally, PIP is awarded on the basis of what happens for the majority of time. Thus you are having a better day, or just need to go to the shop, and go for a walk, this doesn't exclude the possibility of points, even if you can go well over 200m and have no discomfort or safety issues etc.
The very occasional walk you describe to the shop clearly isn't the majority pattern for 'over 50% of days', and therefore also has to be discounted.
Lastly, since you are totally exhausted after this occasional walk, it is doubtful whether you could fulfil the repeatability criteria. All activities have to done repeatedly as required across the day. Although for walking this might be somewhat a theoretical test, it would not be unreasonable for someone to go to the shop in the morning, realise that you had forgotten to get a birthday card, and then go back to the shop and onwards to the post box. You might then want to walk round to a friend's place later.
This is the sort of 'normal life' (that needs to be considered in accordance with caselaw) that anyone might wish to adopt, but of course requires more than one walk per day. Hence, if you can only do one very short walk, let alone more than one, you would also fail the repeatedly criteria. Note, all 4 criteria must be satisfied.
I hope that the above gives you a better insight into mobility awards, which can be added to the further information in the members guides.
Good luck.
Let us know how you get on.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: Fabwitch, denby, ivyfox, BIS, Waxwing
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- PDix
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2 years 9 months ago #269066 by PDix
Replied by PDix on topic PIP "tentative" award and Mandatory Reconsideration
Are you able to stand and walk in a fluid movement or do you struggle to get up, have to pause, get your balance before you set off? Do you use a walking aid, crutches, sticks, or frame? Do you have to sort out your walking aids before you set off?
I went into a great deal of detail about how I find it difficult to stand up and get sorted before I walk. With back problems, I doubt that you are able to stand and walk without a great deal of pain and it takes you quite a few minutes to get mobile.
Note down all the issues you have when getting out of a sofa compared to a dining room chair. Do you have a special chair so you can rise with less pain?
I went into a great deal of detail about how I find it difficult to stand up and get sorted before I walk. With back problems, I doubt that you are able to stand and walk without a great deal of pain and it takes you quite a few minutes to get mobile.
Note down all the issues you have when getting out of a sofa compared to a dining room chair. Do you have a special chair so you can rise with less pain?
The following user(s) said Thank You: an ex nurse, Gary, Waxwing, LL26
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- Andrew
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2 years 9 months ago #269075 by Andrew
Replied by Andrew on topic PIP "tentative" award and Mandatory Reconsideration
Hello LL26,
Thank you very much for your excellent explanation. I have to agree with you, having read your comment I am guilty of stating my maximum walk. Lesson learnt.
Thank you for your pointers; I`ll sit down now with your comments, and the plethora of paper work I have printed from Benefitsandwork, in front of me to put together a "plan of attack".
I certainly will let you know how I get on.
Thank you and regards,
Andy
Thank you very much for your excellent explanation. I have to agree with you, having read your comment I am guilty of stating my maximum walk. Lesson learnt.
Thank you for your pointers; I`ll sit down now with your comments, and the plethora of paper work I have printed from Benefitsandwork, in front of me to put together a "plan of attack".
I certainly will let you know how I get on.
Thank you and regards,
Andy
The following user(s) said Thank You: denby, Waxwing, LL26
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