- Posts: 1
- Forum
- Members forums
- ESA, PIP and DLA Queries and Results
- PIP denied due to work - how to evidence impact for a MR?
× Members
PIP denied due to work - how to evidence impact for a MR?
- L
- Topic Author
- Offline
Less More
1 month 3 weeks ago #296268 by L
PIP denied due to work - how to evidence impact for a MR? was created by L
I’m really hoping someone may be able to give some advice as I feel completely defeated!
So I’ve recently had my PIP assessment come through and been awarded 0 points, even though when I initially went through the descriptors with my partner I thought I’d score in each daily living component, as did my partner, even at the enhanced rate.
I asked for a copy of the PA4 form which the health professional completed during the telephone assessment, and there are a few things I don’t agree with but think they have significantly impacted the decision.
1) they did not include all of the information I spoke about during the 90 minutes. Interestingly, most of the detail about how an activity has a lasting impact on my mental health and takes a significant time to build up to doing, was completely missed in the report even though I spoke at length about this.
2) there are continuous references to the fact that I was able to articulate myself well, politely and appropriately and did not need someone else at the assessment. It’s difficult for my partner to take time off (and they are the only one I would trust) and I did explain this, but again this was not included. I have spent my whole life overcompensating, talking more when I feel anxious and am constantly assessing what I am saying in these types of situations. It feels like I have been penalised because I seemed ‘put together’ despite the fact that I verbally expressed that I was nervous and do not cope well with phone calls (I avoid them wherever possible).
3) I work a full time job which sometimes includes Saturday mornings, but do not work for at least 12 weeks of the year. Not only was the minimum 12 weeks off not mentioned anywhere, the report also didn’t include how I explained that when at work I literally do not do anything in the evenings/ weekends as I am exhausted from masking. They also didn’t reflect how I mentioned I struggle at work to stay on top of everything, start and never finish projects, rely on emotional support from colleagues most days, or that during holidays I barely leave the house because the walls I build up at work come crashing down. The type of work I do offers loads of distractions from everything else in life.
Essentially from reading the reasonings the assessor has given, they have leaned heavily on three aspects to say that I ‘should’ be able to do everything (despite me speaking at length and giving examples that I can’t/ it’s a severe struggle): working 5-6 days a week and the work I do means I have cognitive capability to do tasks, that there is no diagnosis of depression or anxiety, and that I engaged well and articulately in the assessment without support.
I just don’t know where to start or whether it’s completely hopeless. I feel totally invalidated and as though my struggles are not genuine. I also didn’t think they were able to award PIP on diagnosis alone, so I’m confused as to how they can make a decision not to award it in part because I don’t have a diagnosis of depression or anxiety, even though I evidenced that my condition leads to low mood and anxiety. Reading the comments and the DMs paragraph just feels as though they do not truly understand the impact ADHD has despite my best efforts to explain this in my PIP form. Is it worth writing an appeal? I also wondered if it would be worth getting my partner to contribute to this? They have over time had to intervene when I have had panic attacks and spiralled into such a mental paralysis that I’m incapable of anything, which can take hours to get out of.
Honestly, any advice I would be so so grateful for - and a congratulations in advance if you’ve managed to get to the bottom of this without being distracted! (It’s long, I apologise!)
So I’ve recently had my PIP assessment come through and been awarded 0 points, even though when I initially went through the descriptors with my partner I thought I’d score in each daily living component, as did my partner, even at the enhanced rate.
I asked for a copy of the PA4 form which the health professional completed during the telephone assessment, and there are a few things I don’t agree with but think they have significantly impacted the decision.
1) they did not include all of the information I spoke about during the 90 minutes. Interestingly, most of the detail about how an activity has a lasting impact on my mental health and takes a significant time to build up to doing, was completely missed in the report even though I spoke at length about this.
2) there are continuous references to the fact that I was able to articulate myself well, politely and appropriately and did not need someone else at the assessment. It’s difficult for my partner to take time off (and they are the only one I would trust) and I did explain this, but again this was not included. I have spent my whole life overcompensating, talking more when I feel anxious and am constantly assessing what I am saying in these types of situations. It feels like I have been penalised because I seemed ‘put together’ despite the fact that I verbally expressed that I was nervous and do not cope well with phone calls (I avoid them wherever possible).
3) I work a full time job which sometimes includes Saturday mornings, but do not work for at least 12 weeks of the year. Not only was the minimum 12 weeks off not mentioned anywhere, the report also didn’t include how I explained that when at work I literally do not do anything in the evenings/ weekends as I am exhausted from masking. They also didn’t reflect how I mentioned I struggle at work to stay on top of everything, start and never finish projects, rely on emotional support from colleagues most days, or that during holidays I barely leave the house because the walls I build up at work come crashing down. The type of work I do offers loads of distractions from everything else in life.
Essentially from reading the reasonings the assessor has given, they have leaned heavily on three aspects to say that I ‘should’ be able to do everything (despite me speaking at length and giving examples that I can’t/ it’s a severe struggle): working 5-6 days a week and the work I do means I have cognitive capability to do tasks, that there is no diagnosis of depression or anxiety, and that I engaged well and articulately in the assessment without support.
I just don’t know where to start or whether it’s completely hopeless. I feel totally invalidated and as though my struggles are not genuine. I also didn’t think they were able to award PIP on diagnosis alone, so I’m confused as to how they can make a decision not to award it in part because I don’t have a diagnosis of depression or anxiety, even though I evidenced that my condition leads to low mood and anxiety. Reading the comments and the DMs paragraph just feels as though they do not truly understand the impact ADHD has despite my best efforts to explain this in my PIP form. Is it worth writing an appeal? I also wondered if it would be worth getting my partner to contribute to this? They have over time had to intervene when I have had panic attacks and spiralled into such a mental paralysis that I’m incapable of anything, which can take hours to get out of.
Honestly, any advice I would be so so grateful for - and a congratulations in advance if you’ve managed to get to the bottom of this without being distracted! (It’s long, I apologise!)
- BIS
- Offline
Less More
- Posts: 8502
1 month 3 weeks ago #296284 by BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by BIS on topic PIP denied due to work - how to evidence impact for a MR?
Hi L
I am so sorry that you find yourself in this position. I can't tell you whether you should put in for a Mandatory Reconsideration - that is a decision you will have to make for yourself - but I will respond to the issues you have raised, and hopefully, that will give you some things to consider before you make a choice. Firstly you have one month from the date on your decision letter to put in for Mandatory Reconsideration. You can read about how to do this in our Guide to PIP Appeals (which has the MR information in it)
1. Missing information - this is very common in reports. I don't think I have ever seen a report where all issues discussed appear in the final report. Unfortunately, they will cherry-pick what they put in. This is why we advise claimants to ask for their assessments to be recorded and make their own recording. You haven't said that you did this. If you have - then it will make it easier to challenge your report - if you haven't, you can still put in for an MR - but it's harder to dispute what an assessor has written or missed out.
2. Being articulate - I'm afraid you have fallen prey to the common bias of assessors who discriminate against anyone who comes across as articulate. Don't feel bad about it. You can challenge this by saying that the assessor was 'mistaken' in thinking you were not nervous. They could not see you and didn't see the signs of stress; they don't know you and so have no idea what your voice sounds like under different circumstances - and you will always try and sound your best even in difficult circumstances, and it is unfair of them to discriminate because of that. You then go on to say all the things you experienced: shortness of breath, shaking, clammy hands, nausea etc, etc.
3. Working full-time - There are claimants who work who receive PIP, but there are also a lot of people who get turned down. I know they didn't mention that you miss 12 weeks a year - they won't care because even if you add on holiday entitlement - they would argue you are still at work the majority of the time. What you need to show is how you struggle at work. Are your work aware of you condition? Did you send in any corroboration from colleagues about your struggles? Have they made any reasonable adjustments for you at work? If the only evidence you gave them came from you - see if you can get any from work. I understand that this might not be possible - but it doesn't sound as if they are just going to take your word for it. You say that the type of work you do "offers distractions from everything else in life", and the assessor may have viewed that as a positive and seen it as you being able to manage. I would get your partner to write a letter saying what he witnesses about you going to work and what happens when you get back.
4. Not understanding ADHD. - In my experience many asssessors don't understand it or how it impacts on someone's life. You've obviously tried to explain it, but they haven't understood it. If you put in for an MR - I would go to the NHS website and include what it says about ADHD in adults, particularly underlining the part which says the symptoms in adults are "more hard to define". "Mood swings" are stated as a symptom - so you can contradict that the assessor said about you not having a diagnosis of anxiety or depression. I would argue there is no need for you to have a separate diagnosis. www.nhs.uk/conditions/attention-deficit-...order-adhd/symptoms/
You also need to understand that the decision maker - is not a medical person - so they rarely contradict the assessor.
I don't know what you said on your original form or whether you read our guide in the first place - but I would have a look and see if there's anything you missed out. We also have a guide on how to challenge a medical report.
We have had many people with ADHD struggle to get PIP - but many of them have won an award in the end. It can be a dispiriting process. Whatever you decide, try not to take it personally that the assessor didn't appear to believe you. I know it hurts like mad - but this person doesn't know you. You know you. You are the expert in your condition and how it affects your life. Don't waste any energy on someone who is a stranger - even though their decision has hurt you.
If you have any further questions - come back and ask.
BIS
I am so sorry that you find yourself in this position. I can't tell you whether you should put in for a Mandatory Reconsideration - that is a decision you will have to make for yourself - but I will respond to the issues you have raised, and hopefully, that will give you some things to consider before you make a choice. Firstly you have one month from the date on your decision letter to put in for Mandatory Reconsideration. You can read about how to do this in our Guide to PIP Appeals (which has the MR information in it)
1. Missing information - this is very common in reports. I don't think I have ever seen a report where all issues discussed appear in the final report. Unfortunately, they will cherry-pick what they put in. This is why we advise claimants to ask for their assessments to be recorded and make their own recording. You haven't said that you did this. If you have - then it will make it easier to challenge your report - if you haven't, you can still put in for an MR - but it's harder to dispute what an assessor has written or missed out.
2. Being articulate - I'm afraid you have fallen prey to the common bias of assessors who discriminate against anyone who comes across as articulate. Don't feel bad about it. You can challenge this by saying that the assessor was 'mistaken' in thinking you were not nervous. They could not see you and didn't see the signs of stress; they don't know you and so have no idea what your voice sounds like under different circumstances - and you will always try and sound your best even in difficult circumstances, and it is unfair of them to discriminate because of that. You then go on to say all the things you experienced: shortness of breath, shaking, clammy hands, nausea etc, etc.
3. Working full-time - There are claimants who work who receive PIP, but there are also a lot of people who get turned down. I know they didn't mention that you miss 12 weeks a year - they won't care because even if you add on holiday entitlement - they would argue you are still at work the majority of the time. What you need to show is how you struggle at work. Are your work aware of you condition? Did you send in any corroboration from colleagues about your struggles? Have they made any reasonable adjustments for you at work? If the only evidence you gave them came from you - see if you can get any from work. I understand that this might not be possible - but it doesn't sound as if they are just going to take your word for it. You say that the type of work you do "offers distractions from everything else in life", and the assessor may have viewed that as a positive and seen it as you being able to manage. I would get your partner to write a letter saying what he witnesses about you going to work and what happens when you get back.
4. Not understanding ADHD. - In my experience many asssessors don't understand it or how it impacts on someone's life. You've obviously tried to explain it, but they haven't understood it. If you put in for an MR - I would go to the NHS website and include what it says about ADHD in adults, particularly underlining the part which says the symptoms in adults are "more hard to define". "Mood swings" are stated as a symptom - so you can contradict that the assessor said about you not having a diagnosis of anxiety or depression. I would argue there is no need for you to have a separate diagnosis. www.nhs.uk/conditions/attention-deficit-...order-adhd/symptoms/
You also need to understand that the decision maker - is not a medical person - so they rarely contradict the assessor.
I don't know what you said on your original form or whether you read our guide in the first place - but I would have a look and see if there's anything you missed out. We also have a guide on how to challenge a medical report.
We have had many people with ADHD struggle to get PIP - but many of them have won an award in the end. It can be a dispiriting process. Whatever you decide, try not to take it personally that the assessor didn't appear to believe you. I know it hurts like mad - but this person doesn't know you. You know you. You are the expert in your condition and how it affects your life. Don't waste any energy on someone who is a stranger - even though their decision has hurt you.
If you have any further questions - come back and ask.
BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: denby
Moderators: Gordon, Gary, BIS, Catherine, Wendy, Kelly, greekqueen, peter, Katherine, Super User, Chris, David