The Horizon software at the centre of the current Post Office scandal was originally designed to save money and reduce fraud in connection with benefits and pension payments.  Even though the Benefits Agency dropped the software, there are disturbing parallels between the way sub-postmasters were, and claimants still are, treated.

£700 million lost
Horizon was a joint venture between the Post Office, the Benefits Agency (as the DWP was then called) and ICL, a subsidiary of Fujitsu.

The intention was to create a swipe card system for benefits and pensions to be paid out at Post Offices, replacing paper payment books.

The project began in 1996, but by 1999 the Benefits agency had lost all faith in the system ever working and pulled out, leaving the taxpayer with a massive £700 million bill with nothing to show at the end of it.

In desperation, the project was repurposed to allow electronic bookkeeping to replace paper accounts in post offices.

And the result of that is now playing out in the media, the courts and a public inquiry.

Misuse of powers
That the Benefits Agency pulled out of the Horizon system it so its credit. 

But there are many alarming parallels  between the current DWP and the Post Office.

Both have the power to conduct their own criminal investigations and both routinely misuse these powers.

The Post Office threatened sub-postmasters with prosecution for theft unless they admitted wrongdoing and agreed to pay back all the money they allegedly owed.

The reality was that the Post Office very often had no evidence that any theft had taken place and would not have been able to bring such a charge.  But sub-postmasters were never given the opportunity to examine the alleged evidence.

Similarly, claimants interviewed under caution by the DWP are often told that if they end their claim and agree terms to pay back any alleged overpayment, they will escape prosecution for theft.

Many claimants agree, without understanding that the DWP have failed to show them any evidence of the alleged overpayment.

If such cases go to tribunal, rather than a criminal court, they are very often thrown out – or the alleged overpayment dramatically reduced - because of a lack of evidence.  The DWP has such poor systems that they often cannot actually show whether payments took place or how much they were for.

In other cases, the claimant will insist that they informed the DWP of a change of circumstances but the DWP will be unable to supply a copy of the document they received from the claimant, even though there is evidence it existed.

No legal representation
Both sub-postmasters and claimants are routinely interviewed under caution without any legal representation being offered or provided.  This would not happen if prosecutions were being carried out via the police and the Crown Prosecution Service.

The lack of legal representation allows the prosecuting body to mislead the people they are pursuing without any fear of consequences.

Obsessive secrecy
Both the DWP and the Post Office are obsessively secretive. 

The Post Office’s often successful attempts to hide information from the courts and the current public inquiry are a scandal in themselves.

In the same way, anyone who has attempted to obtain information from the DWP via the Freedom of Information Act will know the huge and very expensive lengths that the department will go to in order to keep evidence about their practices and procedures secret, even when it involves the death of claimants.

And there are many examples of the DWP keeping evidence from inquiries, government committees and even coroners’ courts.

Bonuses for wrongly recovering money
Post Office investigators, it has now been revealed, were on a bonus system for any money they recovered by threatening and misleading sub-postmasters into repaying money they never owed.

We don’t know if DWP investigators are also on a bonus system for recovering money from claimants.  But we do know that in the past the DWP has paid bonuses to teams for pushing claimants off benefits, including by way of sanctions.  So there is every possibility that fraud teams are incentivized in this way.

Benefits and Work has made  a Freedom of Information request for any documents which deal with bonuses in relation to detecting fraud or recovering money from claimants.

We don’t expect to get a genuine response anytime soon.

Fears for the future
The DWP have very recently been given powers to allow the mass surveillance of claimants’ bank accounts.

But, as we revealed last November,  the DWP want to go much further than this.

They are hoping to get the power to arrest claimants, search their homes and seize evidence.

After what we have seen of the Post Office scandal, such a possibility is truly terrifying.  The opportunity for the department to disappear documents, including copies kept by the claimant which would establish their own innocence, do not bear thinking about.

In the wake of the Post Office scandal, there is now a very strong argument for stripping the DWP of its power to prosecute claimants.  And there is an absolutely overwhelming argument for preventing them gaining any additional powers.

But is there anyone who will effectively make that argument?

You can read more about the connection between the Post Office Horizon system and the Benefits Agency in Alan Bates and Others vs the Post Office Technical Appendix to

Judgment (No.6) “Horizon Issues”  and in the Private Eye special report Justice Lost in the Post

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    Tomkins · 2 days ago
    I read claimants with an official appointee will have the claimant commitment waived.

    That's good because My son wouldn't be able to comply with a routine change, an unfamiliar place or socialise with an unfamiliar person by phone or face to face. He also wouldn't have a clue what any of it meant.
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    Al · 3 days ago
    I saw the headline on Rightsnet today that the DWP have confirmed that they will start migrating ESA/HB claimants September this year. I can't read the full article for the full details so maybe someone with a membership can? B&W do you have access? Thanks.
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      beehive 1904 · 2 days ago
      @beehive 1904 Thank you to B&W for  clarification in today`s News post....
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      beehive 1904 · 2 days ago
      @Al OMG........this is yet more worrying news and, yet again, goal posts being moved...always a step closer - head messing stuff :-(.  Like AI I have now seen the Rightsnet headline but can`t read the article.... hard to believe that within a couple of months it`s gone from 2028/9 to starting in September 2024....I never got an April ESA letter this year and now wonder if it`s because I`m earmarked for the `first wave`?   Like AI if someone with access to Rightsnet is in a position to provide further clarity that would be much appreciated.....  
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    reasonstobecheerful · 3 days ago
    The dogmother, I think your link  is working fine 😊 You mean this one?
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    notsoeasy · 4 days ago
    It is a very frustrating aspect of the assault on PIP that the government has presented it alongside, and has perhaps itself even conflated it, with out of work and/or means tested benefits. This confusion has perpetuated the perception of the disabled as lazy scroungers. PIP is not an income replacement or means tested award, it is a payment designed to contribute to the various extra costs of diverse incapacity. Despite not being required to work, many recipients of PIP are, legitimate!y, working, and may need and use their PIP payments to help keep them in employment, by funding such as transport, assistive technology and support workers (hence not only working, but providing employment).

    The government speaks of targeting the payments. They are already targeted, sectioned into mobility and daily living awards, selected on the basis of very specific and scored descriptors. Noone succeeding in applying for PIP is undeserving, it is extremely hard to qualify and often takes many attempts with the demand for evidence and burden of proof on the claimant commonly unrealistic.

    One of the most unreasonable instances I encounter of the demand for proof is for evidence of suicidal ideation. There is only one conclusive proof of that.



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    Linz · 4 days ago
    Hubby has indefinate pip, both elements. His mobility (due to an RTA} is practically nil, the Dr. always comes to the car park at surgery to administer vaccines/blood test etc. He is  75 & has mobility car etc.  Will we have to reclaim,migrate or whatever the DWP are now requesting, or will we just be able to stop worrying?
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      Sara · 4 days ago
      @Linz Sorry, Linz, my answer to you keeps getting cut. Trying again.

      The various proposed changes to PIP are very much at the planning stage, and might never be implemented. There is no migration from PIP to UC, only from means tested and (for now) working age legacy benefits.

      If you are claiming pension credit and/or housing benefit, there are likely to be changes, but some way off, so no imminent concerns for you.
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    Ani · 4 days ago
    The council wrote me last month to say my ESA/housing benefit will be switched over to UC and that I needed to apply by "the deadline." When I phoned, they couldn't say when this "deadline" would be. DWP doesn't pick up; I was on hold more than an hour and just gave up. Most days I'm not well enough to use the telephone. I guess I'll wait for a letter? 

    Problem is, I'll be homeless in five months--the landlord's selling my adapted flat--so how will the DWP even reach me? Of course, it would be ideal for them if I dropped out of the system this way, wouldn't it?
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    Worry Wart · 4 days ago
    I currently receive DLA (with what was an indefinite award)& Income related ESA. I haven't had a medical for years (because of covid restrictions)& like some of you on here I'm worrying everyday that, the dreaded letters will come through my letterbox. It's definitely made my mental health worse & if I was forced back into work, I definitely would have a breakdown, because I simply couldn't cope. Does anyone know if DLA & ESA migration would be handled together & are there still lots of you out there that haven't heard from the DWP since before Covid? Do you also think that this will go ahead? I have no support from my GP or psychiatrist so I'm basically just waiting for them to stop my benefits.
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      Elaine · 3 days ago
      @Rainbow I agree I have evidence from way back but still they aren’t listening 
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      Rainbow · 4 days ago
      @Worry Wart I wss harassed....errr I mean reassessed in 2012,2016,2018 and 2021. They don't seem to understand "lifelong" or "untreatable"
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    The dogmother. · 4 days ago
    Oh crumbs thst link I shared isn't working for some reason. 
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    sirjames · 4 days ago
    14 years of being punished for being ill.
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    Denise · 4 days ago
    Been on the government sight about UC migration dates, and different benefits, at the bottom it says ESA only or ESA with housing benefit, will not be migrated onto UC until a later date, this is confusing and worrying.
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    Sara · 4 days ago
    DWP should be held accountable for, and made to follow up claims which do not migrate, then help claimant through the process. They should not simply rub their hands in glee, as they appear to be doing, at the savings. The lack of transition is the fault of the system, not the claimant.
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    keepingitreal · 4 days ago
    Re-posting because previous attempt got stuck:

    https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/cost-of-living/planned-dwp-pip-crackdown-could-9267361?int_source=nba?

    Since when did we not need nhs proof of condition? People who have been driven to get private assessments for adhd or autism have had their diagnosis rejected because it is not nhs.

    Anyone gone "hey, I've got MS/Parkinson's/Schizophrenia/Chronic Fatigue/COPD/Bipolar" for example, and the dwp gone "fine, here's the money, have a good time"?

    Have they frolics.
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    Can't walk, can't drive due t · 4 days ago
    I'm just going to send all my bills to my mp for her to pay, end of. 
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    A · 5 days ago
    I think I'm the only one who would be better off migrating to the UC, as everyone else is either reluctant or is scared of it!
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    lesley · 5 days ago
    The dogmother, seem to have heard similar jargon before "single gateway" "workfare" (similar to workwell) We want welfare, not workfare! Correct me if I am wrong but are they not ideas from the U.S. from back in the seventies. They do not know what to come up with next!
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      lesley · 5 days ago
      @The dogmother. They will make people more ill with all their frightening threats. Most of us with mental illness could probably start a job and maybe do it for half a day or something, but to keep at it constantly day in day out would cause a breakdown.
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      The dogmother. · 5 days ago
      @lesley lesley yes.. absolutely.  More rhetoric.  If it works, I'll eat my dog dipped on gravy.. and there's absolutely zero chance I'd Ever do that.
      All I see is more claptrap. 
      How do you 'motivate' anyone with constant threats. How too do you force those totally incapable of a single day's work in jobs that will never be suitable, some of us would need,for a start, multiple adjustments, but that won't take away our Pain,Fatigue ,worry,stress, anxiety ,panic attacks and the rest. 
      Total and utter waste of time and effort..  even if it's only in paper with a few 'pilot schemes. Which incidentally they'll tell us are working marvellously.Tsk tsk. If it wasn't so threatening I'd be busy yawning with the stupid boredom of it all. 

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      The dogmother. · 4 days ago
      @Lola68 Nothing mentioned yet per say Lola68 it's all assumptions as of yet. We will get a leaflet telling us change is coming then a letter to 'invite' us to move to UC and we'd then have three months to do it.
      Unless things change. With luck it will not happen any time soon.
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      Lola68 · 4 days ago
      @The dogmother. will they write to us ans tell us when we have to change, i had my esa (IR) work assessment 2 weeks ago ,and theyve kept me in support group fr another 18 months, they didn't mention me applying for UC in the paperwork. Thanks
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      The dogmother. · 5 days ago
      @Rainbow @Rainbow it's on my mind 24-7 I've no peace at all because of it,if we aren't fighting our way through pip, esa, uc ,we are faced with change after change ,proposal after proposal. I think it's a deliberate act to up end any normality we might have.
      To frighten and intimidate us, probably knowing most of it won't see the light of day. It still has the desired effect.
      I can't believe I got three months feeling a bit better in my mind after my WCA to have to try to cope with this. I do not know what else they can come up with to squeeze the life from us.
       
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      Rainbow · 5 days ago
      @The dogmother. Voluntary or not how dare they keep trying to ram this horse manure through before consultations are finished.

      This crazy untrue obsession with "work helps people stay healthy" is a delusional lie for many conditions.

      I hope labour are going to get a grip and are taking note of all yhe strong backlash recently to most of these ideas and forget most of it.

      I can't speak for others but my pewce of mind is more important than money and no matter how hard it may be I won't be bothering with the move to UC when asked. I'd rather my already poor health wasn't added to and I keep my peace.
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    Skev · 6 days ago
    They migrated me in January from working tax credits im about to go bankrupt
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      Mehetabel · 4 days ago
      @Skev Im just migrating now from WTC to UC, and quite scared about it all.  What have they done to harm you?  If theyd just left it one more year I would have been safely getting my pension :( 
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      The dogmother. · 5 days ago
      @Skev Bless you. How the heck they can keep getting away with putting people into destitution is beyond me. I've no adequate words. 
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    The dogmother. · 6 days ago
    They know what they are doing bringing the uc migration forward and the impact it will have.
    If I could afford to ignore the migration I'd be doing it.
    I'd rather run twenty miles barefoot than face what's  coming.
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      The Dog Mother · 6 days ago
      @M shirker I can't believe,or maybe I can, they brought it forward by three year's. 
      They really don't know what to be at for sheer badness.
      But they've put me in a bit of a tailspin.

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      M shirker · 6 days ago
      @The dogmother. @The dogmother No wonder nobody wants to migrate onto the evil rotten system I feel the same too would rather run away from it if I could but will see how things go in the beginning before I do anything silly?
      It probably will go ahead and even If labour get in November it would only be a short delay anyway so its definitely coming good luck with it all I’m enjoying the last 12 months of peace and quiet down here in Blackpool south least no tories where I live