Permitted Work on ESA

I wonder if anyone can help me understand the Permitted Work rules - the advisers at my local JC+ are very nice and have tried to help but unfortunately they're desperately under-trained on this subject and seem to understand it even less than I do.

Specifically, I want to know how self-employment in 'creative industries' works with the Permitted Work rules. I'm on ESA (WRAG) because I have ME/CFS. I might occasionally be able to manage small amounts of creative work (music, craft, writing), but these don't fit neatly into the boxes on a Permitted Work form.

For instance, I might be able to play on a recording of a song, and I might get paid £200 for that - the recording itself would only take an hour or two but the pay reflects the private practice a musician does to prepare (when you're paid for a performance it's not about the time the performance itself takes, it's more like a painter being paid for a painting - the performance is actually the finished product, not the work). So how would I report that? I would only be doing it 2 or 3 times a year at the very most, so it wouldn't amount to more than £20/week on average - but would the DWP average it out like that, in which case it would be within the PW Lower Limit, or would they simply see it as me earning £200 in a single week (or day!), in which case I would lose my benefit instantly I think?

Another thing I might be able to do would be selling small handmade items online, but obviously that would provide a very irregular income - because I am only able to make things occasionally and also you never know when/if they'll sell. So again I'm not sure how I would report that as Permitted Work.

Yet another possibility: selling digital products online (e.g. downloadable knitting patterns). With that, you only do the work of producing the item once, because you can sell multiple copies without doing further work (except the admin, of course), so again, how would I report that to the DWP?

My JC+ adviser has suggested that I fill in a form to apply for permission to find out if the work would be allowed or not. But I don't want to do that as I know they pause your benefit as soon as you submit (or even request) that form. Also, if permission wasn't given, or the work was deemed to fall in the PW Higher Limit (i.e. time-limited), would I then be able to withdraw my application, or would they hold me to my stated intention to work? Right now all these things are hypothetical anyway - I don't actually know if I could find the work and/or be well enough to carry it out.

Hi Nina,

We have had similar questions in the past from people who want to undertake 'creative' activities. I'm afraid I don't think there was ever any specific conclusion reached! I would normally advise that you consult your JC+ advisor but it doesn't sound as if that will be any help.

One thing I can tell you is that DWP do not average income over a period of time. Your ESA would be stopped for any week in which you earned above the limit.

It may be that one of the other mods or members will be able to comment further.

Nina

I've had the same problem. No-one seems to know the definitive answer as to how part time self employed people with disabilites can earn. I do know of someone who was on job seeker's allowance who received money spread out over 3 years I believe it was for a book deal. I didn't get all the information (his wife was a tutor of mine) but I understand that the staff in his job centre were particularly nice and it was at their discretion. I believe ESA operate similarly.

Certainly feedback I got from another organisation... whose name has slipped my mind sorry I will try to remember ... I contacted them about being self-employed when I was on income support and they did say that moving to employment support which i am now on would be better for me. The person I spoke to said that it was possible to earn money spread acorss an amount of time but again it was down to the job centre and how sympathic they are. Also if you are involved with a charity they can act as mentors to you. Certainly this organisation were mentoring people with disabilities to start their own businesses. That is my goal as I will never be able to do a 9-5 job. Unfortunately this organisation had no mentors in my area.

Perhaps you will find the organisation I am referring to if you google 'disability' and 'self-employment' and 'mentor'?

There is also an organisation called Creative Future that might be able to help you.

REmember that your earnings do not include the materials you buy or postage... you get to deduct these things.

I earnt £13 through creative future for a poem they managed to place in the Big Issue for me a while ago. As I understand it that this was classed as negligible income. I, however, spent a lot more on postage stamps and writing materials submitting my work to places.

I think if you want to do PW you should get the support of your GP.

Unfortunately the rules are stacked against part time flexible work from home on a self employed basis.
I banged my head repeatedly against this some years back. I tried to get on various schemes but every one had contradictory rules that prevented me participating. If you're too sick to work they generally expect you to just crawl off into a corner and be grateful for your lifestyle choice.

Theoretically if you are self employed you do accounts which cover a year for tax purposes so this does mean averaging out your income but if you are sick or disabled obviously you wouldn't be working regular hours. I was eventually advised just to give up. Very frustrating.

Also if you do some permitted work you may find you get a reassessment claim form.

Hmm.

There may be something in the artist's and writers year book which will help Nina because there is a section on earnings. I find this book really difficult to concentrate and understand so I haven't managed to plough through it myself.