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My friends in a real pickle with benefits
- Lucky22
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4 years 3 months ago #255124 by Lucky22
My friends in a real pickle with benefits was created by Lucky22
This is quite a complex query, apologies in advance. I am seeking advice on behalf of a friend who is single and basically not in touch with any family members, so without a support system.
I helped her earlier in the week sort out getting her gas back on when there was a problem with the card, because she has no internet access or ability to make calls or texts from her mobile at the moment due to not having money to top up. I left quite worried about her.
She was a previous ESA support group recipient for the conditions of PTSD, depression and anxiety. She was on several medications and was doing courses of counselling since quite a number of years, but decided to stop all treatment about a year ago. When she was reassessed, she told them about some plans she had for starting a small business, (which I advised her not to do) so of course they failed her. After that she had a short period of working part time waitressing jobs through an agency, before finding it too difficult to continue. She has continued to receive PIP at the higher rate and has been living off this, plus housing benefit in addition to some savings which she has now run down.
She was severely depressed when I visited her, is not coping on her money (she’s now in debt) and told me I’ve got myself into a hole I don’t know how to get out of.
Although she is diagnosed with depression, I think her symptoms are closer to bipolar. When she is in a somewhat manic phase, she is unrealistic about her career prospects and need for support. I think her coming off her medication and attempting to work were part of that cycle.
As regards her situation, I advised her to make a decision whether to apply for Universal Credit or ESA, because she cannot continue on just PIP and would likely fail her next assessment in any case, because she no longer receives ESA. The information I would like to be able to relay back to her is as follows:
1. Has she committed benefit fraud by not writing to PIP to tell them she is no longer in receipt of ESA? If so, is there a defence possible to say she didn’t know this was her job? (rather than the role of ESA people)
2. How much of a problem is desisting all NHS treatments for a period likely to be at an ESA assessment, if she attempts to restart them now? I do believe this is part of her condition, as she has a lot of delusional ideas and manic symptoms of up in the am elevation and depression cycles. Would attempting to get a new diagnosis of bipolar help? (Because that would qualify as a change in her condition.)
3. How much of a problem is her having worked in the past few years likely to be?
4. Where can she go to get practical support & info about food banks in the area, help with debt management and budgeting, joining some kind of community which can offer practical and emotional support? I know some people with mental health issues have a support worker-she needs this as a bare minimum, how can it be arranged? She is not good with money. I think having a phone with minutes, texts, and a bit of data for emergencies is essential during Lockdowns, so this the first thing she needs to sort out, which will involve buying a second hand smartphone (because hers isn’t functioning properly) and getting a cheaper pay as you go deal than the £25 a month she was paying.
Many thanks in advance for any reply.
I helped her earlier in the week sort out getting her gas back on when there was a problem with the card, because she has no internet access or ability to make calls or texts from her mobile at the moment due to not having money to top up. I left quite worried about her.
She was a previous ESA support group recipient for the conditions of PTSD, depression and anxiety. She was on several medications and was doing courses of counselling since quite a number of years, but decided to stop all treatment about a year ago. When she was reassessed, she told them about some plans she had for starting a small business, (which I advised her not to do) so of course they failed her. After that she had a short period of working part time waitressing jobs through an agency, before finding it too difficult to continue. She has continued to receive PIP at the higher rate and has been living off this, plus housing benefit in addition to some savings which she has now run down.
She was severely depressed when I visited her, is not coping on her money (she’s now in debt) and told me I’ve got myself into a hole I don’t know how to get out of.
Although she is diagnosed with depression, I think her symptoms are closer to bipolar. When she is in a somewhat manic phase, she is unrealistic about her career prospects and need for support. I think her coming off her medication and attempting to work were part of that cycle.
As regards her situation, I advised her to make a decision whether to apply for Universal Credit or ESA, because she cannot continue on just PIP and would likely fail her next assessment in any case, because she no longer receives ESA. The information I would like to be able to relay back to her is as follows:
1. Has she committed benefit fraud by not writing to PIP to tell them she is no longer in receipt of ESA? If so, is there a defence possible to say she didn’t know this was her job? (rather than the role of ESA people)
2. How much of a problem is desisting all NHS treatments for a period likely to be at an ESA assessment, if she attempts to restart them now? I do believe this is part of her condition, as she has a lot of delusional ideas and manic symptoms of up in the am elevation and depression cycles. Would attempting to get a new diagnosis of bipolar help? (Because that would qualify as a change in her condition.)
3. How much of a problem is her having worked in the past few years likely to be?
4. Where can she go to get practical support & info about food banks in the area, help with debt management and budgeting, joining some kind of community which can offer practical and emotional support? I know some people with mental health issues have a support worker-she needs this as a bare minimum, how can it be arranged? She is not good with money. I think having a phone with minutes, texts, and a bit of data for emergencies is essential during Lockdowns, so this the first thing she needs to sort out, which will involve buying a second hand smartphone (because hers isn’t functioning properly) and getting a cheaper pay as you go deal than the £25 a month she was paying.
Many thanks in advance for any reply.
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- Catherine
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4 years 3 months ago #255131 by Catherine
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Catherine on topic My friends in a real pickle with benefits
Hello Lucky,
And I am sure that your friend considers herself Lucky to have you as her friend.
There is no reason that not being in receipt of ESA means that you cannot receive PIP. Indeed a number of people receive PIP and work. PIP is about the help you need with everyday life, ESA is about your ability to work. They can be linked, but don’t need to be.
If someone is not working, subject to other ways of financially supporting themselves which does not include PIP, they are entitled to claim UC.
I suggest you read www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/universal-credit-uc for more information about this and how it would work for your friend.
To answer your specific questions:
1. No, she has not committed benefit fraud. It is quite possible to qualify for PIP and not ESA, and the other way round. Many people do. It would only be fraud if her condition had changed and I assume from what you have said that she believes it has not.
2. It always looks good on your application if you are receiving treatment, since it is supporting evidence that you do have that condition and it is serious enough to warrant treatment. However treatment is not an essential criteria for being awarded benefits. If her condition seems to be changing, it is probably worthwhile encouraging her to get a medical review primarily for her own sake, if nothing else. An up to date supporting letter is always helpful with any application.
3. If you are trying to demonstrate that you cannot work, then I can’t see how not having worked for a couple of years could be a problem. It might potentially affect which particular benefit she will qualify for not, but whether or not she will be entitled to one.
4. It is impossible for us to advise on local matters, you need to ask someone local to you. First ports of call could be Mental Health Worker, CAB, GP or your local council. They may not be able to help themselves, but they might well be able to signpost you to someone who can.
Well done for being a good friend and being willing to help!
Catherine
And I am sure that your friend considers herself Lucky to have you as her friend.
There is no reason that not being in receipt of ESA means that you cannot receive PIP. Indeed a number of people receive PIP and work. PIP is about the help you need with everyday life, ESA is about your ability to work. They can be linked, but don’t need to be.
If someone is not working, subject to other ways of financially supporting themselves which does not include PIP, they are entitled to claim UC.
I suggest you read www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/universal-credit-uc for more information about this and how it would work for your friend.
To answer your specific questions:
1. No, she has not committed benefit fraud. It is quite possible to qualify for PIP and not ESA, and the other way round. Many people do. It would only be fraud if her condition had changed and I assume from what you have said that she believes it has not.
2. It always looks good on your application if you are receiving treatment, since it is supporting evidence that you do have that condition and it is serious enough to warrant treatment. However treatment is not an essential criteria for being awarded benefits. If her condition seems to be changing, it is probably worthwhile encouraging her to get a medical review primarily for her own sake, if nothing else. An up to date supporting letter is always helpful with any application.
3. If you are trying to demonstrate that you cannot work, then I can’t see how not having worked for a couple of years could be a problem. It might potentially affect which particular benefit she will qualify for not, but whether or not she will be entitled to one.
4. It is impossible for us to advise on local matters, you need to ask someone local to you. First ports of call could be Mental Health Worker, CAB, GP or your local council. They may not be able to help themselves, but they might well be able to signpost you to someone who can.
Well done for being a good friend and being willing to help!
Catherine
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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- LL26
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4 years 3 months ago #255133 by LL26
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Replied by LL26 on topic My friends in a real pickle with benefits
Hello Lucky,
I am sorry to hear that your friend is struggling. It is however good to know that you are supporting her.
1. PIP is an independent benefit - you do not have to get ESA or any other sickness benefit to gain PIP. Likewise, you can work and still be entitled to PIP. If your friend's health condition is the same, albeit there might be some better or worse days, and nothing has changed in the way she can either do or not the activities that give ruse to the Descriotor points, then there is no fraud. Of course if your friend can now do activities she was unable to do previously in respect of PIP then thus must be declared. Generally, one benefit department doesn't 'talk' to another, so if you do need to declare a change of circumstances please tell each department, otherwise there might be an overpayment which might need to be repaid.
2. Desisting treatment - as you say this may be indicative of your friend's general health condition. This is a more tricky area. Maybe there is an explanation for your friend not taking her medication? There is no doubt good reason for your friend being prescribed medication, and it could be dangerous for her if this is not taken. Try and persuade your friend to speak to a GP if consultant if there is a problem and there might be other medication or treatment which would help. You feel that your friend has undiagnosed illness, in which case it is all the more important to get her to go to her doctor who can then treat her properly.
Both PIP and ESA are based on functionality, this is to say as long as your health condition prevents you from doing the specified activity to the required standard then it does not matter what actual diagnosis you have. A lot of successful claimants have a clear disability but no firm diagnosis. An obvious example is low back pain, which can really restrict mobility and walking but could derive from several causes. So, whilst you don't need a need diagnosis for either benefit, it would certainly be a good idea to get diagnosed to enable appropriate treatment. Also, this would facilitate an up to date medical report which could support your friend's claim.
3. Previous work - you have not stated when your friend was previously working. If she tries work for a few weeks and then becomes too ill, this is very much evidence that she is unable to sustain work, and hence should be eligible to receive benefit. Depending on the gap between last ESA and work, she might be able to restart ESA, otherwise a new UC claim will be required. Details can be found on the guides on this website.
4. Access to food banks and mental health support will vary from area to area. The best thing is to contact a local CAB, or even GP as they will doubtless have information to help. It is also possible that a local charity might be able to find funds for a grant to buy a cheap phone.
In the meantime, keep an eye on your friend and try to ensure she remains safe. You are clearly a very good friend, and this is a credit to you. However caring can become overwhelming , remember that there are organisations which will help both your friend and you as a carer, albeit an unofficial one. Again local CAB, GP or advice centre will have details of support organisations for both of you.
Take care. I hope your friend's health improves.
LL26
I am sorry to hear that your friend is struggling. It is however good to know that you are supporting her.
1. PIP is an independent benefit - you do not have to get ESA or any other sickness benefit to gain PIP. Likewise, you can work and still be entitled to PIP. If your friend's health condition is the same, albeit there might be some better or worse days, and nothing has changed in the way she can either do or not the activities that give ruse to the Descriotor points, then there is no fraud. Of course if your friend can now do activities she was unable to do previously in respect of PIP then thus must be declared. Generally, one benefit department doesn't 'talk' to another, so if you do need to declare a change of circumstances please tell each department, otherwise there might be an overpayment which might need to be repaid.
2. Desisting treatment - as you say this may be indicative of your friend's general health condition. This is a more tricky area. Maybe there is an explanation for your friend not taking her medication? There is no doubt good reason for your friend being prescribed medication, and it could be dangerous for her if this is not taken. Try and persuade your friend to speak to a GP if consultant if there is a problem and there might be other medication or treatment which would help. You feel that your friend has undiagnosed illness, in which case it is all the more important to get her to go to her doctor who can then treat her properly.
Both PIP and ESA are based on functionality, this is to say as long as your health condition prevents you from doing the specified activity to the required standard then it does not matter what actual diagnosis you have. A lot of successful claimants have a clear disability but no firm diagnosis. An obvious example is low back pain, which can really restrict mobility and walking but could derive from several causes. So, whilst you don't need a need diagnosis for either benefit, it would certainly be a good idea to get diagnosed to enable appropriate treatment. Also, this would facilitate an up to date medical report which could support your friend's claim.
3. Previous work - you have not stated when your friend was previously working. If she tries work for a few weeks and then becomes too ill, this is very much evidence that she is unable to sustain work, and hence should be eligible to receive benefit. Depending on the gap between last ESA and work, she might be able to restart ESA, otherwise a new UC claim will be required. Details can be found on the guides on this website.
4. Access to food banks and mental health support will vary from area to area. The best thing is to contact a local CAB, or even GP as they will doubtless have information to help. It is also possible that a local charity might be able to find funds for a grant to buy a cheap phone.
In the meantime, keep an eye on your friend and try to ensure she remains safe. You are clearly a very good friend, and this is a credit to you. However caring can become overwhelming , remember that there are organisations which will help both your friend and you as a carer, albeit an unofficial one. Again local CAB, GP or advice centre will have details of support organisations for both of you.
Take care. I hope your friend's health improves.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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- Lucky22
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4 years 3 months ago #255155 by Lucky22
Replied by Lucky22 on topic My friends in a real pickle with benefits
Thank you very much for these replies. I am seeing her tomorrow and have also emailed ‘Mind’ the mental health charity, which I hope I can get her a support worker through. I will pass on this info.
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- denby
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4 years 3 months ago #255158 by denby
Replied by denby on topic My friends in a real pickle with benefits
Hi Lucky, well done for caring and noticing your friend's situation. She could try the national charity CAP for debt help [make sure she does not get hooked by one of the profiteering IVA companies!] 0800 328 0006 is CAP's number.
GiffGaff sell refurbed phones for £50 or so upwards and their monthly 'goodybags' of minutes texts and data are reasonably easy to manage. My husband has done fine with a handset and goodybags from them - no contract needed.
Hope this info helps and best wishes to both of you, Denby
GiffGaff sell refurbed phones for £50 or so upwards and their monthly 'goodybags' of minutes texts and data are reasonably easy to manage. My husband has done fine with a handset and goodybags from them - no contract needed.
Hope this info helps and best wishes to both of you, Denby
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