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Can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided
- Alf Tupper
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3 years 8 months ago #262811 by Alf Tupper
Can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided was created by Alf Tupper
My son has always scored points for this activity and has had the enhanced rate of mobility component since 2015 when he first applied for PIP. He had a face to face assessment on that occasion.
He has various mental health issues including bipolar; personality disorder; agoraphobia.
This year, he had a telephone assessment and it has been decided (PA4) that there was no evidence of overwhelming psychological distress and therefore he scored 0 points for the activity. It leaves him with 10 points, so I am in the process of requesting a mandatory reconsideration.
My argument is that the activity relates to going outside and therefore, I am querying how can it be deemed whilst he was sat in his home, in a safe environment, on the phone, that there is no evidence of overwhelming psychological distress. Or am I missing the point here?
Mark
He has various mental health issues including bipolar; personality disorder; agoraphobia.
This year, he had a telephone assessment and it has been decided (PA4) that there was no evidence of overwhelming psychological distress and therefore he scored 0 points for the activity. It leaves him with 10 points, so I am in the process of requesting a mandatory reconsideration.
My argument is that the activity relates to going outside and therefore, I am querying how can it be deemed whilst he was sat in his home, in a safe environment, on the phone, that there is no evidence of overwhelming psychological distress. Or am I missing the point here?
Mark
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- denby
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3 years 8 months ago #262813 by denby
Replied by denby on topic Can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided
Hi BaldRunner [must inform I am not a mod] however you can write in if you are quick, before the decision is made. You write to 'The Decision Maker' at the DWP address on the letters you have. Coldly make the point as you have here and include 'that this is not a request for an MR but you may make one later'. Maybe refer again to the evidence you have re his agorophobia. Do you know what the assessor's 'day-job' was? If nowt to do with mental health you might put that in too.
This worked for our daughter's claim. Hope you are able to sort it out successfully, your life must be stressful enough when your family is dealing with your son's various issues.
Regards,
Denby
This worked for our daughter's claim. Hope you are able to sort it out successfully, your life must be stressful enough when your family is dealing with your son's various issues.
Regards,
Denby
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- LL26
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3 years 8 months ago #262815 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic Can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided
Hi BaldRunner,
I feel your frustration!
DWP make a lot of assumptions about all manner of things. One common assumption is that ability to drive equates to ability to chop veg and remember to take pills! (Yes, you are reading this properly!)
Unfortunately DWP also regularly fail to understand and/or will ignore claimant problems with planning journeys etc. This issue is compounded by DWP having previously been taken to the High Court on this matter, so both historically and currently DWP have struggled to understand and comply with the law in this area! You are by no means alone in this!
So, you will need to concentrate your efforts on debunking the DWP myths.
Firstly have another look at the members guides there is a huge amount of helpful info.
Do you have medical evidence from GP/specialist nurse etc? If not, try and obtain this.
What exactly happens if your son makes journeys? Try to quantify this. What is the help he needs, what happens without help? Does this cause problems for the rest of the day, even longer? Are there any journeys your son can actually do? Why can he do these and not others? Is there a certain trigger that causes upset? Etc etc
Hopefully if you can answer these questions then this will help frame your MRecon. Letter.
You may well be aware that when descriptors say can not or always, it does actually mean can not or all the time!
PIP points are awarded on the basis of having difficulties with PIP activities for the majority of days.So even if a better day allows eg a walk to the local shop, if this doesn't or can't happen most days you can score points.
Additionally if activities can't be done safely, to a reasonable standard , no more than twice the usual time it should, or repeatedly, (all 4 criteria have to apply,) then points should be awarded. Hence this is why the words 'can not' in a descriptor needs to read, can not, for the majority of days, perform X safely, or repeatedly etc etc...
Please consider your son's journeys bearing all of these factors.
Also, journeys comprise everything from 20 yards to the post box or 200 miles across the country!
You might want to look at this
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j...&ved=2ahUKEwjDq4ypja
This is a link to JT v SSWP. It provides an interesting insight to how to consider OPD, especially if this precludes many/all journeys.
In this case Judge Rowland observed that there was a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Which comes first?? Not going out because it makes you panicky, or going out feeling panicky and not being able to do it again. Judge Rowland felt that in a way this problem could be overthought. He felt that if you were couldn't go out because if panicky etc the it was highly likely that you had OPD, and as a counter argument if you could go out, then whatever mental health issues you have would probably not be OPD. The definition that DWP apply namely severe anxiety such as to lose function is simply not the correct test.
Consider this with the other matters raised above.
Try to be concise in your MR letter.
The first and crucial point to make is that your son's condition has not changed. He has been in receipt of enhanced mobility for X years. There has been no change of circumstances. ( You can provide a bit of health background, including any special education scenarios or hospital. This will confirm your son's long term issues. If your son works, with limited work or in a sheltered workshop or special arrangements are made, you may want to describe the arrangements. )
[ Note: Although DWP have the general power to instigate reviews and renewals etc, in order to change benefit and revise their decision ie make a supersession they have to show an actual change of circumstances has occurred not just a different opinion by an assessor who spends a very short time with your son! ]
Of course you will wish to criticise the assessment report. Include this next.
To begin with, on a separate piece of paper write down what are the major issues. Incorrect fact, assumption, confusing questions etc are all good points. Create three or four bullet points. Don't worry too much about poor grammar or spelling, you can simply start your criticism of the report eg
The report is of poor quality, for example
•there are many basic spelling errors eg medycyne instead or medicine ...
On addition there are are many inaccuracies including;
• My son can not repeatedly..
•My son can not safely...
•My son never goes to the supermarket...
Just pick the worst examples and then the perfected bullet points can go in your letter.
You can also set out the clear flaws in the phone assessment process. Have a look at the qualifications of the assessor, which should be listed eg paramedic nurse. It is perfectly OK to say that eg the assessor does not have any specialist qualifications as he is listed simply as 'nurse'.
You can therefore say that the non specialist assessor contradicts the detailed consultant psychiatrist report, and again briefly list important contradictions.
ALL of the above points are possible to make to show that the assessment report can not be relied upon.
You can then set out your son's limitations as discussed earlier, and explain exactly which points should be awarded and why. Be concise, use examples. If you can, use your son's own words. Ask him if he can explain the panic etc he feels. Write what he says. This gives a lot of impact.
You can write the MRLetter as yourself, ie father and/or carer. If this is the case then you may want to include a quick statement
from you son that you have his full authority to write the letter on his behalf. Alternatively, you can write the letter in 1st person, and then put an endorsement that the letter was written with assistance. You may be his appointee. If this is the case, make it clear what status you have. You will not need additional permission.
Include son's NI number on all pages.
Make it clear that you accept other points and that you only wish to dispute Mobility.
The MR letter needs to be sent within a month of the date decision notice.
Include your specialist's report if you have this.
You can also make a personal statement about your observations/knowledge as a main carer to include with the letter.
Of course, if your son is able he can write his own letter with your assistance and input as appropriate.
I hope this helps.Good luck.
LL26
I feel your frustration!
DWP make a lot of assumptions about all manner of things. One common assumption is that ability to drive equates to ability to chop veg and remember to take pills! (Yes, you are reading this properly!)
Unfortunately DWP also regularly fail to understand and/or will ignore claimant problems with planning journeys etc. This issue is compounded by DWP having previously been taken to the High Court on this matter, so both historically and currently DWP have struggled to understand and comply with the law in this area! You are by no means alone in this!
So, you will need to concentrate your efforts on debunking the DWP myths.
Firstly have another look at the members guides there is a huge amount of helpful info.
Do you have medical evidence from GP/specialist nurse etc? If not, try and obtain this.
What exactly happens if your son makes journeys? Try to quantify this. What is the help he needs, what happens without help? Does this cause problems for the rest of the day, even longer? Are there any journeys your son can actually do? Why can he do these and not others? Is there a certain trigger that causes upset? Etc etc
Hopefully if you can answer these questions then this will help frame your MRecon. Letter.
You may well be aware that when descriptors say can not or always, it does actually mean can not or all the time!
PIP points are awarded on the basis of having difficulties with PIP activities for the majority of days.So even if a better day allows eg a walk to the local shop, if this doesn't or can't happen most days you can score points.
Additionally if activities can't be done safely, to a reasonable standard , no more than twice the usual time it should, or repeatedly, (all 4 criteria have to apply,) then points should be awarded. Hence this is why the words 'can not' in a descriptor needs to read, can not, for the majority of days, perform X safely, or repeatedly etc etc...
Please consider your son's journeys bearing all of these factors.
Also, journeys comprise everything from 20 yards to the post box or 200 miles across the country!
You might want to look at this
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j...&ved=2ahUKEwjDq4ypja
This is a link to JT v SSWP. It provides an interesting insight to how to consider OPD, especially if this precludes many/all journeys.
In this case Judge Rowland observed that there was a bit of a chicken and egg situation. Which comes first?? Not going out because it makes you panicky, or going out feeling panicky and not being able to do it again. Judge Rowland felt that in a way this problem could be overthought. He felt that if you were couldn't go out because if panicky etc the it was highly likely that you had OPD, and as a counter argument if you could go out, then whatever mental health issues you have would probably not be OPD. The definition that DWP apply namely severe anxiety such as to lose function is simply not the correct test.
Consider this with the other matters raised above.
Try to be concise in your MR letter.
The first and crucial point to make is that your son's condition has not changed. He has been in receipt of enhanced mobility for X years. There has been no change of circumstances. ( You can provide a bit of health background, including any special education scenarios or hospital. This will confirm your son's long term issues. If your son works, with limited work or in a sheltered workshop or special arrangements are made, you may want to describe the arrangements. )
[ Note: Although DWP have the general power to instigate reviews and renewals etc, in order to change benefit and revise their decision ie make a supersession they have to show an actual change of circumstances has occurred not just a different opinion by an assessor who spends a very short time with your son! ]
Of course you will wish to criticise the assessment report. Include this next.
To begin with, on a separate piece of paper write down what are the major issues. Incorrect fact, assumption, confusing questions etc are all good points. Create three or four bullet points. Don't worry too much about poor grammar or spelling, you can simply start your criticism of the report eg
The report is of poor quality, for example
•there are many basic spelling errors eg medycyne instead or medicine ...
On addition there are are many inaccuracies including;
• My son can not repeatedly..
•My son can not safely...
•My son never goes to the supermarket...
Just pick the worst examples and then the perfected bullet points can go in your letter.
You can also set out the clear flaws in the phone assessment process. Have a look at the qualifications of the assessor, which should be listed eg paramedic nurse. It is perfectly OK to say that eg the assessor does not have any specialist qualifications as he is listed simply as 'nurse'.
You can therefore say that the non specialist assessor contradicts the detailed consultant psychiatrist report, and again briefly list important contradictions.
ALL of the above points are possible to make to show that the assessment report can not be relied upon.
You can then set out your son's limitations as discussed earlier, and explain exactly which points should be awarded and why. Be concise, use examples. If you can, use your son's own words. Ask him if he can explain the panic etc he feels. Write what he says. This gives a lot of impact.
You can write the MRLetter as yourself, ie father and/or carer. If this is the case then you may want to include a quick statement
from you son that you have his full authority to write the letter on his behalf. Alternatively, you can write the letter in 1st person, and then put an endorsement that the letter was written with assistance. You may be his appointee. If this is the case, make it clear what status you have. You will not need additional permission.
Include son's NI number on all pages.
Make it clear that you accept other points and that you only wish to dispute Mobility.
The MR letter needs to be sent within a month of the date decision notice.
Include your specialist's report if you have this.
You can also make a personal statement about your observations/knowledge as a main carer to include with the letter.
Of course, if your son is able he can write his own letter with your assistance and input as appropriate.
I hope this helps.Good luck.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: Alf Tupper
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- Alf Tupper
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3 years 8 months ago #262826 by Alf Tupper
Replied by Alf Tupper on topic Can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided
Thank you both for your replies. I should have said that he hasn’t been out of the house alone since 2007. He has panic attacks when outside and does have to be prompted, encouraged and cajoled. The telephone assessment was conducted by a paramedic. His earlier assessment was face to face with a nurse and he scored four points for:
Needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant
I did record the interview
and have already identified some ‘inaccuracies’ in the PA4. if it comes to a tribunal, I shall offer the recording or a transcript.
Needs prompting to be able to undertake any journey to avoid overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant
I did record the interview

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- Alf Tupper
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3 years 8 months ago #262827 by Alf Tupper
Replied by Alf Tupper on topic Can plan and follow the route of a journey unaided
Hi Denby, we already have the formal decision. The PA4 arrived two days later. It was the assessor on the phone who decided on the points. He even stated that there were no audible signs of pain or breathlessness. The phone was on speaker in the middle of the table about three feet away from the claimant…
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