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Wording on PIP2 Form. "I cannot" or "I am Unable" also using acceptable standard
- Waxwing
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1 year 1 day ago #284971 by Waxwing
Wording on PIP2 Form. "I cannot" or "I am Unable" also using acceptable standard was created by Waxwing
Hello
My brother raised a question about the wording he should use in his written evidence on his PIP2 form when he makes a new PIP claim soon. I have not been able to advise him further because it has left me a little puzzled hence me asking here. This might sound pedantic and if it does I apologise but he does not want to word his evidence wrongly or give the wrong impression with the wording on his form.
I am helping him to word his evidence because he has problems explaining his physical limitations. On his draft written evidence for the applicable activities we have been using the phrase:-
"I cannot safely .... because of long standing and ongoing ...."
We were using the term "I Cannot" because it was used in the descriptor and we were using the wording from the descriptor in his draft written evidence. Because PIP is about a persons ability to complete the tasks Relaibly would it be better to use the term unable instead of cannot so it reads like this:-
"I unable to safely .... because of long standing and ongoing ...."
On a final question about wording used in written evidence. Would it be wise to use the term "to an acceptable standard" when there is no actual termanoligy used in the regulation for "an acceptable standard" Also he is concerned about using the term "to an acceptable standard" because it does not sound like a natural everyday whay of saying things when you descibe your limitations. He is ok with using safely, repeatedly and saying he is slow completing the tasks.
Thank you kindly in advance for your assistance with this maybe trivial problem.
Kind Regards
Waxwing
My brother raised a question about the wording he should use in his written evidence on his PIP2 form when he makes a new PIP claim soon. I have not been able to advise him further because it has left me a little puzzled hence me asking here. This might sound pedantic and if it does I apologise but he does not want to word his evidence wrongly or give the wrong impression with the wording on his form.
I am helping him to word his evidence because he has problems explaining his physical limitations. On his draft written evidence for the applicable activities we have been using the phrase:-
"I cannot safely .... because of long standing and ongoing ...."
We were using the term "I Cannot" because it was used in the descriptor and we were using the wording from the descriptor in his draft written evidence. Because PIP is about a persons ability to complete the tasks Relaibly would it be better to use the term unable instead of cannot so it reads like this:-
"I unable to safely .... because of long standing and ongoing ...."
On a final question about wording used in written evidence. Would it be wise to use the term "to an acceptable standard" when there is no actual termanoligy used in the regulation for "an acceptable standard" Also he is concerned about using the term "to an acceptable standard" because it does not sound like a natural everyday whay of saying things when you descibe your limitations. He is ok with using safely, repeatedly and saying he is slow completing the tasks.
Thank you kindly in advance for your assistance with this maybe trivial problem.
Kind Regards
Waxwing
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- BIS
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1 year 1 day ago #284977 by BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by BIS on topic Wording on PIP2 Form. "I cannot" or "I am Unable" also using acceptable standard
Hi Waxwing
I think both of you are overthinking this and worrying too much. I know your brother is worrying because he's scared of getting it wrong and being turned down, and you're concerned because you want to give him the best support you can.
No one reading the form will think a claimant has said 'cannot' and they should have used 'unable' or vice versa. I've never heard an assessor query something like that. As you know, whatever language you use, there are no guarantees, and assessors have been known to misinterpret things that appear crystal clear to the claimant. All he is doing is tying himself up in knots and causing himself additional stress trying to get it perfect. And I sympathise with that after the experience he has already had, but he needs to try not to do that.
I just wanted to remind you of this.
Regulation 4(2A) PIP Regs 2013 provides that all PIP descriptor activities have to be completed
• safely
• repeatedly
• to an acceptable standard
• within a reasonable time
This is the so called 'reliability' criteria - all 4 must apply- if a claimants fails to meet even just one of the four this indicates they can't do that descriptor and may need help, an aid or actually can not do the task.
Safely - is there a substantial risk that harm might occur. So, if your brother had epilepsy, and a fit could occur causing danger then this indicates eg supervision for bathing- it doesn't matter whether the likelihood of the fit is infrequent; clearly a fit in the bath could have very serious consequences. Safety issues could comprise dropping knives, or hot pans/food whilst cooking or eating, but could also include leaving the cooker on, and running the risk of fire etc. Falls indicate safety issues, not hearing traffic coming could indicate the need for supervision if out walking.
Acceptable standard is not defined but kind of means the level of completion expected by others. Leaving large messes whilst cooking, or constantly spilling food off the plate or food probably isn't acceptable. Only being able to hear half the words being said is unlikely to be acceptable. Putting on clothes upside down or back to front with buttons not aligned with the button holes is unlikely to be acceptable.
In addition, significant amounts of pain will also be 'unacceptable". (And this is something that affects your brother)
Reasonable time- this is defined as no more than twice that of non-disabled person. If your brother takes too long again, this shows a need for an aid or physical help.
Some of these criteria overlap- if you are too slow then this probably isn't acceptable. Leaving slip hazards in kitchen could be both unsafe and unacceptable.
Finally, consider repetition, tasks need to be done as many times a day as reasonable. The repetition rate will vary across the descriptors.
Yes, he can use the language to an 'acceptable standard' - because they will understand that. Few people complete a PIP form in the same way they speak - it would be full of pauses, repetitions and in some cases swear words.
Hope this helps. Come back and ask if you have any further questions.
BIS
I think both of you are overthinking this and worrying too much. I know your brother is worrying because he's scared of getting it wrong and being turned down, and you're concerned because you want to give him the best support you can.
No one reading the form will think a claimant has said 'cannot' and they should have used 'unable' or vice versa. I've never heard an assessor query something like that. As you know, whatever language you use, there are no guarantees, and assessors have been known to misinterpret things that appear crystal clear to the claimant. All he is doing is tying himself up in knots and causing himself additional stress trying to get it perfect. And I sympathise with that after the experience he has already had, but he needs to try not to do that.
I just wanted to remind you of this.
Regulation 4(2A) PIP Regs 2013 provides that all PIP descriptor activities have to be completed
• safely
• repeatedly
• to an acceptable standard
• within a reasonable time
This is the so called 'reliability' criteria - all 4 must apply- if a claimants fails to meet even just one of the four this indicates they can't do that descriptor and may need help, an aid or actually can not do the task.
Safely - is there a substantial risk that harm might occur. So, if your brother had epilepsy, and a fit could occur causing danger then this indicates eg supervision for bathing- it doesn't matter whether the likelihood of the fit is infrequent; clearly a fit in the bath could have very serious consequences. Safety issues could comprise dropping knives, or hot pans/food whilst cooking or eating, but could also include leaving the cooker on, and running the risk of fire etc. Falls indicate safety issues, not hearing traffic coming could indicate the need for supervision if out walking.
Acceptable standard is not defined but kind of means the level of completion expected by others. Leaving large messes whilst cooking, or constantly spilling food off the plate or food probably isn't acceptable. Only being able to hear half the words being said is unlikely to be acceptable. Putting on clothes upside down or back to front with buttons not aligned with the button holes is unlikely to be acceptable.
In addition, significant amounts of pain will also be 'unacceptable". (And this is something that affects your brother)
Reasonable time- this is defined as no more than twice that of non-disabled person. If your brother takes too long again, this shows a need for an aid or physical help.
Some of these criteria overlap- if you are too slow then this probably isn't acceptable. Leaving slip hazards in kitchen could be both unsafe and unacceptable.
Finally, consider repetition, tasks need to be done as many times a day as reasonable. The repetition rate will vary across the descriptors.
Yes, he can use the language to an 'acceptable standard' - because they will understand that. Few people complete a PIP form in the same way they speak - it would be full of pauses, repetitions and in some cases swear words.
Hope this helps. Come back and ask if you have any further questions.
BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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- Waxwing
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1 year 16 hours ago #284997 by Waxwing
Replied by Waxwing on topic Wording on PIP2 Form. "I cannot" or "I am Unable" also using acceptable standard
Thank you kindly BIS for your assistance and I fully agree with your comments. Yes my brother is very concerned about making a claim because of the trauma of his previous experience and I am also anxiuos because I do not want him to go through the trauma again expecially now his condition is much worse than it was a few years ago. Thanks to this forum and the great advice and the guides provided I am feeling more confident but there is always that seed of doubt that germinates every so often.
Again thank you for your advice it is very much appreciated.
Kind Regards
Waxwing
Again thank you for your advice it is very much appreciated.
Kind Regards
Waxwing
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- Wendy Woo
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11 months 4 weeks ago #285007 by Wendy Woo
Replied by Wendy Woo on topic Wording on PIP2 Form. "I cannot" or "I am Unable" also using acceptable standard
This is such helpful advice, particularly with respect to the succinct reminder about the PIP regulations. It would be so much better if all PIP assessors could be made aware how this relates to the activities in everyday life. So well put - thank you.
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11 months 4 weeks ago #285016 by BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by BIS on topic Wording on PIP2 Form. "I cannot" or "I am Unable" also using acceptable standard
Hi Waxwing
Your brother is lucky to have you. I wish we could bottle the support you give him and share it with others. Too many people are trying to battle this alone. I am really keeping my fingers crossed that this time your brother will come out with a win.
BIS
Your brother is lucky to have you. I wish we could bottle the support you give him and share it with others. Too many people are trying to battle this alone. I am really keeping my fingers crossed that this time your brother will come out with a win.
BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: Waxwing
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