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Pip assessment walking question query
- Astee
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1 month 4 weeks ago #296167 by Astee
Replied by Astee on topic Pip assessment walking question query
That is actually very interesting. It makes sense now why she wrote that I said everything took 'a couple of minutes' when I had said no such thing.
For example, I said
"my car is parked almost directly outside my front door and is no more than 4m away"
Her report said,
"I park my car in a car park and it takes a couple of minutes to get there from my house"
I said
"there is a disabled parking bay directly outside the chemist"
She said
'There is a car park near the pharmacy that takes a couple of minutes to walk.
I said,
"there is a parking bay outside the main entrance to the hospital, and it would take no more than 1 minute to walk from the car to the hospital. Can I walk that far? Yes would I be it cause a lot of pain? YES"
I bet you can't guess what she wrote 🤣
I was wondering what her obsession with 'a couple of minutes. Was, now I get it. But by your example, (and based on her outright lies), she claims I can walk 60m? But the selected 20-50m and then said I can't do that, to an acceptable standard which means I can do it reliably
...
"Although PIP2 reports being able to move less than 20m, 20-50m has been advised because they are mostly having bad days regarding their pain in their legs ,hips and lower back and functional history showing they are able to walk for a couple of minutes at a slow pace unaided. They would then need to stop and rest for 5 minutes which is not to an acceptable standard as their resting time is greater than their walking time suggests they would reliably manage this distance unaided."
I know I'm dyslexi. But eve. I can see there's a something a bit off here?
For example, I said
"my car is parked almost directly outside my front door and is no more than 4m away"
Her report said,
"I park my car in a car park and it takes a couple of minutes to get there from my house"
I said
"there is a disabled parking bay directly outside the chemist"
She said
'There is a car park near the pharmacy that takes a couple of minutes to walk.
I said,
"there is a parking bay outside the main entrance to the hospital, and it would take no more than 1 minute to walk from the car to the hospital. Can I walk that far? Yes would I be it cause a lot of pain? YES"
I bet you can't guess what she wrote 🤣
I was wondering what her obsession with 'a couple of minutes. Was, now I get it. But by your example, (and based on her outright lies), she claims I can walk 60m? But the selected 20-50m and then said I can't do that, to an acceptable standard which means I can do it reliably
...
"Although PIP2 reports being able to move less than 20m, 20-50m has been advised because they are mostly having bad days regarding their pain in their legs ,hips and lower back and functional history showing they are able to walk for a couple of minutes at a slow pace unaided. They would then need to stop and rest for 5 minutes which is not to an acceptable standard as their resting time is greater than their walking time suggests they would reliably manage this distance unaided."
I know I'm dyslexi. But eve. I can see there's a something a bit off here?
- LL26
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1 month 3 weeks ago #296177 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic Pip assessment walking question query
Hi AtlasShoulders,
'Reasonable time' is defined in Reg 4(4)c
means
"no more than twice as long as the maximum period that a person without a physical or mental condition which limits that person’s ability to carry out the activity in question would normally take to complete that activity."
There is an interesting debate here. There are lots of studies about walking speeds. Most if not all of the ones I have seen indicate there is a gender difference and age difference. As far as I am aware there is no caselaw dealing with gender/age discrepancies.
Here is one of the studies
www.healthline.com/health/exercise-fitne...verage-walking-speed
The fastest speed is 1.31m/s and slowest speed is 0.94m/s.
The 0.94 speed comes from an elderly person. Asuming said person is not disabled, which may not be true for a very elderly person, then if using this set of figures the 'reasonable time' should be based on the 0.94m/s level.
This is quite at odds with the speeds used by DWP. It is unlikely that the quoted speed of very slow is going be from a non-disabled person at normal speed.
Or....do you select the range according to age and gender as the base level?
Another thought is that people, especially disabled people slow down when walking. I'm sure there is research to show if you walk eg to the post office you might walk to the post office quicker than you walk back - you could be tired or more stiff etc. Therefore calculating motional distance by a simple multiple of time taken may not be at all accurate!
There certainly is caselaw that states if you have one or more pauses mid walk this may have the effect of breaking the walk in to 2 or more smaller walks. The crucial factor is how long are the pauses. This also ties in to being able to 'repeat'.
I'm sure that mathematically you can complete a short walk in a 'reasonable time', but then take a longer rest which means if you restart walking you can't do the full distance within the allowed time.
Remember too that even if you can manage a longer distance on one day, if you can't (and therefore don't) walk for the next week this doesn't count - it is not the majority of time. And, you are not 'repeating' meaning doing as many walks as reasonably required throughout the whole day. Remember that every car journey will involve a short walk to the car and to the building etc and vice versa.
Any walking significant pain won't count. It has to be excluded as not being 'acceptable standard.'
Unfortunately it appears that the effort required to determine whether (and how far) one can 'legally' walk is considerably more than the effort it takes to actually walk!
LL26
'Reasonable time' is defined in Reg 4(4)c
means
"no more than twice as long as the maximum period that a person without a physical or mental condition which limits that person’s ability to carry out the activity in question would normally take to complete that activity."
There is an interesting debate here. There are lots of studies about walking speeds. Most if not all of the ones I have seen indicate there is a gender difference and age difference. As far as I am aware there is no caselaw dealing with gender/age discrepancies.
Here is one of the studies
www.healthline.com/health/exercise-fitne...verage-walking-speed
The fastest speed is 1.31m/s and slowest speed is 0.94m/s.
The 0.94 speed comes from an elderly person. Asuming said person is not disabled, which may not be true for a very elderly person, then if using this set of figures the 'reasonable time' should be based on the 0.94m/s level.
This is quite at odds with the speeds used by DWP. It is unlikely that the quoted speed of very slow is going be from a non-disabled person at normal speed.
Or....do you select the range according to age and gender as the base level?
Another thought is that people, especially disabled people slow down when walking. I'm sure there is research to show if you walk eg to the post office you might walk to the post office quicker than you walk back - you could be tired or more stiff etc. Therefore calculating motional distance by a simple multiple of time taken may not be at all accurate!
There certainly is caselaw that states if you have one or more pauses mid walk this may have the effect of breaking the walk in to 2 or more smaller walks. The crucial factor is how long are the pauses. This also ties in to being able to 'repeat'.
I'm sure that mathematically you can complete a short walk in a 'reasonable time', but then take a longer rest which means if you restart walking you can't do the full distance within the allowed time.
Remember too that even if you can manage a longer distance on one day, if you can't (and therefore don't) walk for the next week this doesn't count - it is not the majority of time. And, you are not 'repeating' meaning doing as many walks as reasonably required throughout the whole day. Remember that every car journey will involve a short walk to the car and to the building etc and vice versa.
Any walking significant pain won't count. It has to be excluded as not being 'acceptable standard.'
Unfortunately it appears that the effort required to determine whether (and how far) one can 'legally' walk is considerably more than the effort it takes to actually walk!
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: denby, Astee
- LL26
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1 month 3 weeks ago - 1 month 3 weeks ago #296178 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic Pip assessment walking question query
Hi Astee, Please also see the post below which I write before seeing this post.
You quote...
"They would then need to stop and rest for 5 minutes which is not to an acceptable standard as their resting time is greater than their walking time suggests they would reliably manage this distance unaided."
This passage makes no sense at all. I think the assessor is trying to say it's not believable that you take 5 minutes rest?
But it's got nothing to do with 'acceptable standard'
And...if you didn't walk to an acceptable standard, then you wouldn't be able to manage unaided!
I truly despair at the poor quality of reports...
LL26
You quote...
"They would then need to stop and rest for 5 minutes which is not to an acceptable standard as their resting time is greater than their walking time suggests they would reliably manage this distance unaided."
This passage makes no sense at all. I think the assessor is trying to say it's not believable that you take 5 minutes rest?
But it's got nothing to do with 'acceptable standard'
And...if you didn't walk to an acceptable standard, then you wouldn't be able to manage unaided!
I truly despair at the poor quality of reports...
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Last edit: 1 month 3 weeks ago by LL26.
The following user(s) said Thank You: anees292, Astee
- Astee
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1 month 3 weeks ago #296269 by Astee
Replied by Astee on topic Pip assessment walking question query
Yes, i was very confused about that sentence. Especially when you consider i did not say anything about walking 2 mins then resting fir 5' i said i was in oain as sion as u stood up and that th me distance walked or rest period would not change the level of pain. So is she saying she doesnt beleive herself, the mind boggles. Hoping the case manager picks up on that.
- Astee
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1 month 3 weeks ago #296271 by Astee
Replied by Astee on topic Pip assessment walking question query
Thanks for your reply. Yes it is all very messy. Particularly as i didnt say anything about walking for 2 minutes the resting for 5. She just wrote that, but i didnt say it. I just said i didnt know how long in minutes i could walk but i was in pain from the moment i stood up. So was she asking how long i could tolerate the pain. She said yes, hownlong until you needed to rest? I said i really dont know how to answer that question. And she moved on to another question and lied about my answer to that aswell. I also thought the comments regarding what others with same condition could do was not quite right, and it also states my medication does not help in several other sections. Also, i presumed the distance she was referring to to say it wasnt to an acceptable standard was the 20-50m as theres no mention of 80m, but given the guidlines on distance and pace thst people have kindly added here, i can see that this was the disance she might have been saying wasnt to an acceptable standard. I dont think i will have any issue with apppeal, especially having recorded the assessment, its just more time, more waiting, which is totally unessessary. But we push on.
The following user(s) said Thank You: denby
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