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PIP Activity 7 - Talking, Listening and Understanding - Do any of the descripto
- Emmav82
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3 weeks 8 hours ago #315886 by Emmav82
PIP Activity 7 - Talking, Listening and Understanding - Do any of the descripto was created by Emmav82
Hi there
I am currently completing the PIP form for my 16 year old who is transitioning from DLA to pip. When completing the form it helps me (also autistic) to have an understanding of what descriptor should apply, so that when we get our decision we know whether it needs challenging or not. For the majority of activities I can see clearly what descriptor should apply, But I am stuck on activity 7 (Talking, listening and understanding). My daughter is high functioning autistic and also chronically ill with several debilitating conditions that impact her fucnctioning on the majority of days. We have over 20 evidence letters supporting everything we have written in the form. But activity 7 has thrown me because her communication ability fluctuates. On the majority of days she can communicate very eloquently IF communicating with people that she knows, is comfortable with, and she is feeling well in herself. However when feeling overwhelmed, either emotionally, sensory, or by her physical symptoms, which occurs for periods on over 50% of days, she either shuts off, only being able to communicate on a basic level of one word answers/brief interactions, or she switches off entirely and doesn't talk at all. This is with both familiar (including immediate family such as me) and unfamiliar people. When she is like this at home, we pick it up and give her her space. When like it outside the house, she needs me to be her voice (such as when interacting with medical professionals and members of the public). Her EP report sets her communication difficulties out clearly, and states in her educational setting she needs communication cards (which detail that she can go non-verbal and not to try to get her to talk) and staff working closely with her need to be trusted, attuned and trauma informed. I have no idea what descriptor would apply, if any, given the fact that she can also talk very eloquently on the majority of days, and her periods of struggling to talk are unpredictable as her triggers can vary.
I am currently completing the PIP form for my 16 year old who is transitioning from DLA to pip. When completing the form it helps me (also autistic) to have an understanding of what descriptor should apply, so that when we get our decision we know whether it needs challenging or not. For the majority of activities I can see clearly what descriptor should apply, But I am stuck on activity 7 (Talking, listening and understanding). My daughter is high functioning autistic and also chronically ill with several debilitating conditions that impact her fucnctioning on the majority of days. We have over 20 evidence letters supporting everything we have written in the form. But activity 7 has thrown me because her communication ability fluctuates. On the majority of days she can communicate very eloquently IF communicating with people that she knows, is comfortable with, and she is feeling well in herself. However when feeling overwhelmed, either emotionally, sensory, or by her physical symptoms, which occurs for periods on over 50% of days, she either shuts off, only being able to communicate on a basic level of one word answers/brief interactions, or she switches off entirely and doesn't talk at all. This is with both familiar (including immediate family such as me) and unfamiliar people. When she is like this at home, we pick it up and give her her space. When like it outside the house, she needs me to be her voice (such as when interacting with medical professionals and members of the public). Her EP report sets her communication difficulties out clearly, and states in her educational setting she needs communication cards (which detail that she can go non-verbal and not to try to get her to talk) and staff working closely with her need to be trusted, attuned and trauma informed. I have no idea what descriptor would apply, if any, given the fact that she can also talk very eloquently on the majority of days, and her periods of struggling to talk are unpredictable as her triggers can vary.
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- David
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2 weeks 6 days ago #315889 by David
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by David on topic PIP Activity 7 - Talking, Listening and Understanding - Do any of the descripto
Hi Emmav82
You say that your daughter is " high functioning" so I suppose this rules out you being her DWP Appointee ?
You cannot assume a PIP Assesor to have a good understanding of ASD. A Forum member has recently complained about the ignorance of autism shown by an Assessor who was a physiotherapist. So you really have to be methodical in arguing and explaining your case.
If you were to say "On the majority of days she can communicate very eloquently IF communicating with people that she knows, is comfortable with, and she is feeling well in herself" the Assessor would likely jump to the wrong conclusion and deny the points on the " majority of the time " parameter.
So from what you are saying it would be better to say for the majority of the" time she shuts off, only being able to communicate on a basic level of one word answers/brief interactions, or she switches off entirely and doesn't talk at all".
Hopefully in your 20 letters of evidence there will be something to endorse the above.
Remember that for PIP an activity counts as achievable only if the person can do it safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly and within a reasonable time.
Have a read of the BenefitsandWork guide on ASD.
benefitsandwork.co.uk/?dlp=6acc653a53942
Let us know how you get on.
David
You say that your daughter is " high functioning" so I suppose this rules out you being her DWP Appointee ?
You cannot assume a PIP Assesor to have a good understanding of ASD. A Forum member has recently complained about the ignorance of autism shown by an Assessor who was a physiotherapist. So you really have to be methodical in arguing and explaining your case.
If you were to say "On the majority of days she can communicate very eloquently IF communicating with people that she knows, is comfortable with, and she is feeling well in herself" the Assessor would likely jump to the wrong conclusion and deny the points on the " majority of the time " parameter.
So from what you are saying it would be better to say for the majority of the" time she shuts off, only being able to communicate on a basic level of one word answers/brief interactions, or she switches off entirely and doesn't talk at all".
Hopefully in your 20 letters of evidence there will be something to endorse the above.
Remember that for PIP an activity counts as achievable only if the person can do it safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly and within a reasonable time.
Have a read of the BenefitsandWork guide on ASD.
benefitsandwork.co.uk/?dlp=6acc653a53942
Let us know how you get on.
David
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- LL26
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2 weeks 5 days ago #315904 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic PIP Activity 7 - Talking, Listening and Understanding - Do any of the descripto
Hi Emmav82,
Hopefully you will find this slightly late response.
You are correct about analysing an ability for 50%+ of days.
However you also need to consider Regulation 4(2A) PIP regs 2013 (so called 'reliability criteria')
Safety
Acceptable standard
Reasonable time
Repetition
Each has to apply.
Safety
isn't likely to be a main issue here - but don't discount it. (You would have to show a risk of substantial harm in the event if no communication or miscommunication.)
Acceptable standard -
basically here eg pronouncing words correctly. Not giving a 500 word speech when 3 words would do. Etc etc
Reasonable time -
speaking/answering/ understanding taking no longer than twice that of what's normal/usual. (Bear in mind that eg to say something or answer a simple question requiring a short answer the time will actually only be a matter of seconds!)
Repetition -
All PIP descriptor activities have to done repeatedly across the whole day, as many times as is reasonably required. (Unless there is only a very trivial amount of time where the repetition can't be made )
So...cooking activity perhaps is 3 meals per day.
Toilet needs perhaps 5 or 6 times per day - more if incontinent?
But communication - potentially this could be 24/7.
Let me explain this further. Let's consider journeys - this could be by car or on foot or both. On any given day I might need to make the following journeys.(They may only be short but all will count .)
Take kids to school.
Back from school
Go to bank
Get stamps from post office
Go card shop buy birthday card
Fill out card and go back to post office to post
Pick up kids
Take kids to karate
Pick up kids go home
Go out to choir practice
Come home
These are all reasonable journeys if say due to fatigue or arthritis flare up etc I decide I can't manage the desired trip to the bank or post office, and I don't go to choir then I will not 'have repeated' all the reasonably required journeys.
Similarly if you have a fluctuating health condition which means some days you do not remain 'safe' or have increased pain (which could comprise not 'acceptable standard ') or make you move/ speak etc incredibly slowly - any days where these apply will firstly count towards the majority of days and secondly because you haven't been safe, acceptable etc also means you have failed to repeat!
Any non safe, non acceptable, too slow versions of PIP activities count towards majority of days where you can't perform the relevant activity or as appropriate will reflect a need for help and hence points.
So... does your daughter speak, converse, understand, hear etc safety, acceptably and timely across the whole day at all times, apart from perhaps a very few minutes. From what you say the answer is no!
Then consider if the situation would be assisted with yourself or another 'trained' person could offer sufficient support to facilitate communication to the required 'reliable'standard. If not then it is likely she
Cannot express or understand verbal information at all even with communication support. 12 points
At all - means 'reliably' for the majority of days - remembering that any failure to actually communicate via health reasons, or any failure to communicate safely, acceptably, timely and doing all of those things repeatedly due to health problems is a 'can not' do day.
51% of days being 'can not do' days is 12 points!
I hope this makes sense!
LL26
Hopefully you will find this slightly late response.
You are correct about analysing an ability for 50%+ of days.
However you also need to consider Regulation 4(2A) PIP regs 2013 (so called 'reliability criteria')
Safety
Acceptable standard
Reasonable time
Repetition
Each has to apply.
Safety
isn't likely to be a main issue here - but don't discount it. (You would have to show a risk of substantial harm in the event if no communication or miscommunication.)
Acceptable standard -
basically here eg pronouncing words correctly. Not giving a 500 word speech when 3 words would do. Etc etc
Reasonable time -
speaking/answering/ understanding taking no longer than twice that of what's normal/usual. (Bear in mind that eg to say something or answer a simple question requiring a short answer the time will actually only be a matter of seconds!)
Repetition -
All PIP descriptor activities have to done repeatedly across the whole day, as many times as is reasonably required. (Unless there is only a very trivial amount of time where the repetition can't be made )
So...cooking activity perhaps is 3 meals per day.
Toilet needs perhaps 5 or 6 times per day - more if incontinent?
But communication - potentially this could be 24/7.
Let me explain this further. Let's consider journeys - this could be by car or on foot or both. On any given day I might need to make the following journeys.(They may only be short but all will count .)
Take kids to school.
Back from school
Go to bank
Get stamps from post office
Go card shop buy birthday card
Fill out card and go back to post office to post
Pick up kids
Take kids to karate
Pick up kids go home
Go out to choir practice
Come home
These are all reasonable journeys if say due to fatigue or arthritis flare up etc I decide I can't manage the desired trip to the bank or post office, and I don't go to choir then I will not 'have repeated' all the reasonably required journeys.
Similarly if you have a fluctuating health condition which means some days you do not remain 'safe' or have increased pain (which could comprise not 'acceptable standard ') or make you move/ speak etc incredibly slowly - any days where these apply will firstly count towards the majority of days and secondly because you haven't been safe, acceptable etc also means you have failed to repeat!
Any non safe, non acceptable, too slow versions of PIP activities count towards majority of days where you can't perform the relevant activity or as appropriate will reflect a need for help and hence points.
So... does your daughter speak, converse, understand, hear etc safety, acceptably and timely across the whole day at all times, apart from perhaps a very few minutes. From what you say the answer is no!
Then consider if the situation would be assisted with yourself or another 'trained' person could offer sufficient support to facilitate communication to the required 'reliable'standard. If not then it is likely she
Cannot express or understand verbal information at all even with communication support. 12 points
At all - means 'reliably' for the majority of days - remembering that any failure to actually communicate via health reasons, or any failure to communicate safely, acceptably, timely and doing all of those things repeatedly due to health problems is a 'can not' do day.
51% of days being 'can not do' days is 12 points!
I hope this makes sense!
LL26
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